Likes Likes:  34
Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 42

Thread: AR500 Steel. Some lessons learned.

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Administrator Rumbler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Right Here
    Posts
    8,178

    AR500 Steel. Some lessons learned.

    As some of you know rifle steel is the bane of my existence. I hate that shits.

    Because I very frequently have to repair it after an assortment of morons shoot the hell out of it with steel core or "penetrator" ammo.

    In that I have learned a few things through experience I would like to share with you.

    1) Forget about "just" heating it. You know, like what would happen if you welded on it or cut it with a torch. You WILL destroy the temper, rendering the steel far too soft for even repeated centerfire handgun hits. The pistol bullets probably won't go through it, but it will crater it badly. In case you don't know; that is a really bad thing. It can and does create ricochets - sometimes whole bullets, sometimes just fragments, at angles you simply can not predict.

    2) Because I am an old guy, I long ago learned about oil tempering steel. It is a method that induces SURFACE hardening via quenching the hot steel in oil. This works exceptionally well in applications NOT subject to harmonic vibration. You know, like what happens when you shoot a steel plate with a gun. If you shoot it, it WILL crack the steel. Maybe not on the first hit. But by the 150th one, bet on it cracking. See "ricochets" above for why that is really bad.

    3) I hear you thinking. You are thinking; waitadamnedminute! I have seen AR500 that has been cut into a myriad of shapes and sizes. They didn't do that with a flippin hacksaw! And you are right. Here is how that works. And it will also help explain why AR500 targets seem obscenely expensive . . .

    The target manufacturers order NON TEMPERED steel that AR500 is produced from. It is an alloy. They cut and fabricate whatever shapes and/or sizes they want, usually with a cutting table whether it is laser, plasma, or conventional oxy/acetylene, weld it all together conventionally (low hydrogen rods or wire) and then they send the shapes out to be tempered tot he appropriate specifications.

    So . . . the problem remains; howinthehell do you repair AR500 steel shot to death by idiots?


    I've been researching this topic for a very long time now. Testing and debunking or validating. Up until very recently it has been 100% debunking. Then I ran across a thread on a machinist forum. Had NOTHING to do with shooting, these guys seem to mostly be working in the mining industry doing tooling for mining machines.

    What I learned I found just too far fetched to be believable, so i had to test it.

    Salt. Plain old table salt. Iodide optional.

    Mixed TWO full 26oz paper "cans" per gallon of fresh water. Stir until completely dissolved. Then use that as a quench.

    By Jove - it works !!!!!!

    I resurfaced an 8" plate to get it nice and flat and pock mark free. Welded and ground - with an angle grinder - the hell out of it. I then welded a 1/2" (the size that requires a 3/4" wrench for those less fastener size fluent) grade 8 bolt to the back of it and retempered it using the salt quench. At the time the only clean flat container I had was shallow, so the threaded part of the bolt stuck up in the air, while the entire plate and weld area where I attached the bolt was submerged.

    I hung it back on a piece of conveyor belt out on the range at 200 yards. I had JUST walked past the shooting line and called the range hot when it took its first 30-06 hit. Then about 19 more of them. Then countless poodle shooter and .308 hits in the next two days. On the morning of the third day I noticed the plate was down.

    I cussed most every inch of the 200 yards out there to it.

    The surface of the plate was paint free, but there was not a single dimple in it. The grade 8 bolt broke right exactly where it had stuck up out of the quench.


    FWIW. And now you will know why I left the range to go get salt.
    I'd rather be lucky than good, but I'd rather KNOW I'm good than HOPE to get lucky.

  2. #2
    CCGF Head of Ambushes
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Quincy
    Posts
    5,167
    Damn you old fart,who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    (nam era) yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil for I am the meanest SOB in the valley!

  3. #3
    CCGF Grammar Nazi Tack Driver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Outside the Blast Radius, FL
    Posts
    20,207
    Johnny, one more exclamation point and I'd think you meant it.
    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but a tireless minority keen to setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Father of Our Revolution, Samuel Adams.

    I may be found dead in a ditch, but by God, they will find me and my rights in a PILE of brass.

    "Sure you can trust our government. Just ask an Indian."

    "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of Justice is no virtue." - Barry Goldwater




  4. #4
    Senior CRD508's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    War is Peace-Freedom is Slavery-Ignorance is Strength
    Posts
    796
    Very interesting Mike. I wonder what effect it would have on gold?
    Ut Libera Essent Para Bellum

    “If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever.”
    George Orwell, 1984

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by CRD508 View Post
    Very interesting Mike. I wonder what effect it would have on gold?

    Looks like Rumbler has become the range alchemist.

  6. #6
    CCGF Brick Wall BlueBronco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Leon County
    Posts
    11,693
    Rumbler, when you say penetrator rounds, are you talking about the 62 grain rounds like M855?

    Because I very frequently have to repair it after an assortment of morons shoot the hell out of it with steel core or "penetrator" ammo.
    "If our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies then every method of protecting ourselves is morally right" -- Cicero

    "Governor, I haven't let another man touch my gun since 1861."

  7. #7
    Lottery John YankeeFingergasm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    742 Evergreen Terrace
    Posts
    2,817
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueBronco View Post
    Rumbler, when you say penetrator rounds, are you talking about the 62 grain rounds like M855?
    He's talking about ANYTHING THAT STICKS TO A MAGNET.
    You gonna bark all day little doggy or you gonna bite?

  8. #8
    CCGF Brick Wall BlueBronco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Leon County
    Posts
    11,693
    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFingergasm View Post
    He's talking about ANYTHING THAT STICKS TO A MAGNET.
    I got that from the "steel core" part. When I see "penetrator" used, I think of M855 because of the different design to the 7.62x39 and 5.45x39. I know it will go through steel helmets, but wasn't sure how it would actually do against AR500 at 100 to 200 yards.

    Here it is at 15 yards.

    "If our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies then every method of protecting ourselves is morally right" -- Cicero

    "Governor, I haven't let another man touch my gun since 1861."

  9. #9
    CRD wouldn't gold just melt at that temperature? Cherry red steel is about 850 degrees if I remember correctly. You get steel there and then you quench it.

  10. #10
    Senior CRD508's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    War is Peace-Freedom is Slavery-Ignorance is Strength
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattle/Horses View Post
    CRD wouldn't gold just melt at that temperature? Cherry red steel is about 850 degrees if I remember correctly. You get steel there and then you quench it.
    Gold melts a just over 1000 degrees Celsius. I often have to anneal gold in order to remove temper in order to work on it. During the annealing process I get it to a cherry red state almost to the point of melting.
    Ut Libera Essent Para Bellum

    “If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever.”
    George Orwell, 1984

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •