ACTICVE SHOOTER TRAINING COMPLETED

[DaveW]

What, if anything, was included in that training regarding armed good guys that are in the area? What is the most effective way to let you know that I am not the threat? I would really not want to get in the way of or be on the receiving end of a firefight with SWAT while I am just trying to work my way out of the area.

As to being a sheepdog and going back in, without body armor, kevlar, an AR and direct communication with the entry team, not a chance unless my wife is in there. When LEO's come in I think that any visible weapons will be, if not seen as a threat, at the very least be a distraction and how many more people will the active shooter kill while they are sorting that issue out. Also, how would you know the difference between the shooter and an off duty or plain cloths officer, or another good guy? Even if you see "the shooter" shoot someone, how do you know that it was not another good guy shooting who he thought was the bad guy? No, even if we had the proper training there would be too many variables "inside" to think that we would be a net asset without direct communication.

As far as the whole "Sheepdog, Sheep and Wolves" thing goes, I think that there is another category, the Labradors. We are not part of the mindless herd, we think that if the sheep don't make any effort to protect or provide for themselves, it's not our responsibility to do it for them. Don't think that we are not ready, willing and able to fight if the need arises, we are just not looking for one.

[Rumbler]

I am fortunate enough to have a perspective on 'active shooter' most do not as I am deeply involved with both sides; civilian and law enforcement, in the field of training.


Let me start by saying; make no mistake if law enforcement (in such a situation) perceives you as a threat you are going to get shot. Most likely, shot a lot.

That is the result of two factors primarily:

1) Training.
2) The desire to go home intact at the end of their shift.

#1 would be easy to fix, if it were not for #2.


Ok, here is where it gets deep . . . .

I have direct and open lines of communication to no less than four long time SWAT leaders/trainers. They trust me enough to speak freely with me about just the topics you mention.

At least one of them said to me recently: "Mike, if I had a dime for every time I have been shot (in training) by a cop while holding my badge up saying "I AM A COP!!!" I could retire today." He went on to say that the badge on the belt was no better. The badge dangling around the neck was no better. I am not sure this would be better than holding up a badge hollering "I AM A COP!!!!"

We were talking about the potential for this to help.:

http://www.policestore.com/duty-gear...prod42039.aspx


These are available (Talon has them in stock) with "POLICE", "SECURITY", and "CWL" on them. . . . yes, we make you show LEO ID to buy the "POLICE" version.


A couple of years ago, at FSU, Major Russell held a "safety seminar" for faculty and staff. I specifically asked him what would happen if I ended the active shooter and his guys (FSU PD) showed up while I was still obviously armed. His answer was short and sweet: "Probably shoot you". Notice I did not say "had my gun out" I said "armed".


So I figure when it all boils down to its essence I have two choices:

1) Live defenseless until someone else decides it is time for me to die.
2) Be prepared to defend myself - or someone else - and accept personal responsibility for my decisions.

For better or worse, #2 is my choice.

I can't say that is the right choice for everyone, or even anyone. But it is mine.


Woof, woof.

What, if anything, was included in that training regarding armed good guys that are in the area? What is the most effective way to let you know that I am not the threat? I would really not want to get in the way of or be on the receiving end of a firefight with SWAT while I am just trying to work my way out of the area.

As to being a sheepdog and going back in, without body armor, kevlar, an AR and direct communication with the entry team, not a chance unless my wife is in there. When LEO's come in I think that any visible weapons will be, if not seen as a threat, at the very least be a distraction and how many more people will the active shooter kill while they are sorting that issue out. Also, how would you know the difference between the shooter and an off duty or plain cloths officer, or another good guy? Even if you see "the shooter" shoot someone, how do you know that it was not another good guy shooting who he thought was the bad guy? No, even if we had the proper training there would be too many variables "inside" to think that we would be a net asset without direct communication.

As far as the whole "Sheepdog, Sheep and Wolves" thing goes, I think that there is another category, the Labradors. We are not part of the mindless herd, we think that if the sheep don't make any effort to protect or provide for themselves, it's not our responsibility to do it for them. Don't think that we are not ready, willing and able to fight if the need arises, we are just not looking for one.

[OscarMike1127]

Rumblr - I have thought this through many times. I have also done active shooter training on both sides of the spectrum.

Please give your opinion on this:
If I am a civilian or LEO in plain clothes that is faced with a threat, I have already made my decision (much like you) to eliminate that threat at all costs. Would a hasty call to dispatch with my description or badge # be enough to alleviate much of the risk? Are SWAT and first responding personnel trained to recognize "friendly" shooters already on scene, given a BOLO?

[OscarMike1127]

Also, a quick and accurate BOLO abd location of the active shooter to 911/dispatch would also work wonders. This gets rid of the "who is the good/bad guy question", yes?

[Rumbler]

Bingo.

The best "defense" is to call 911, stay on the line, give a clear and accurate description of yourself, the current situation as you are aware of it - do not assume(!!!) and state that you will IMMEDIATELY COMPLY with instructions given by the first badge on the scene (then do it).


What comes to mind is "reluctantly holster". I teach students that the big hurry is to get the gun out and put it to work but not to holster it in such a hurry.

As a side note, how many times have we seen someone "practicing" draw, fire a few rounds, then automatically reholster? Bad news; that is not practicing anything. That is training your brain to make it easier for you to be killed by the threat's accomplice.


Anyway . . . it is entirely conceivable that some law enforcement officer may encounter you before you are positive - or positive enough - to re holster. Make absolutely certain that you comply with direction immediately. DO NOT take the time to weigh whether the instruction makes sense to you or not. If you do not know for certain there is no more threat draw some 'comfort' in knowing that in all likelihood the person issuing you instructions already has their firearm out and at high ready.

Heck, chances are they already have their finger on the trigger.


. . but that is a dissertation for another thread.

[0utlaw]

Heck, chances are they already have their finger on the trigger.

And the mag in correctly










(oops wrong thread)

[AB]

While I agree that "playing the numbers" isn't the very best thing, statistically, almost all active shooters shut down, barricade, and/or take their own lives immediately upon being confronted by an armed threat.

Of course, we can't count on that 100%, but the overwhelming majority of them aren't there for a real fight. Probably because going there to die was in their original plan, unlike the North Hollywood bank robbers. If confronted with an active shooter in the mall, my plan is to use most of my ammo laying fire on the bad guy. That will either take him out of the fight permanently through my action or his, or at least keep him thinking about something else right then. Since I will almost certainly not have a bag full of ammo like an active shooter will, I have no illusions I will run out or low before the first LEO arrive and I will need to retreat. Even if I carried a rifle all the time, which I don't, I doubt I could engage, retreat back to my car, retrieve my rifle and re-engage (this is assuming the shooter was in exactly the same spot they were in when I left, which is unlikely) before the first LEO's are on scene. As an average joe, I wouldn't run back in with no one knowing who I am or why I'm there with a rifle when I see blue lights on scene.

Just my opinion, FWIW.

[0utlaw]

If I'm in a mall or other public place there is no way I would exit and re-engage. At work or other familiar places I can pretty much tell who belongs there and who doesn't, in a place full of strange faces I'm just as likely to engage a plain clothes or off duty LEO as I am the shooter and vice versa. If I see the shooter and I have the shot I'll take it but I'm not going hunting. I will try to move as many people as possible to safety and cover them as they go but when we are out we are out, but going back in Rambo style is just buying trouble.

[Dale Gribble]

Interesting. Can you tell us the whole story? Did he use a gun? Was the husband who was beating his wife killed?

I do not believe a gun was used by anyone, and no one was killed. This was in Pasco County. I will get more information next time I talk to my mom.

I'm not sure why anyone finds this hard to believe however. Remember this:

http://forum.capitalcitygunforum.com...=parking+fight

[Rumbler]

Dale, it is not hard to believe.

I have/had a close friend doing life without parole in Starke for shooting a guy who he woke up in the middle of the nght to find standing at the end of his bed holding a baseball bat.

His wife was in bed beside him, his two very young kids in the next room.

What is hard to believe is that it is plausible to believe that one would believe they could still get in front of a bad guys OODA loop were they to do a risk/benefit assessment prior to acting. . . . . did that make sense? I think you know what I mean . . . . if you know what an OODA loop is and how it works in relation to a gunfight.