ACTICVE SHOOTER TRAINING COMPLETED

[OscarMike1127]

Another point that I'd like to bring up here is the legality for civilians. I know the LEO's here said they would initially go in, or go out and come back in.

But you're allowed by law to do that, whereas the law does not favor us. If I decided to go in and intervene, I would theoretically be acting under law by using a weapon to stop a forcible felony from occurring to another individual. But would that hold up in court?

What if the only shot I could take ended up with the round going through the aggressor and striking an innocent hiding in a closet behind them. Am I now liable to face criminal and/or civil pursuit?

What if I came across another armed citizen who was trying to intervene, saw his weapon pointed at me or another, and I engaged him? Would that not be manslaughter?

I fully agree that I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, and not see innocents killed, but my faith in humanity is not what it used to be. Will the court of public opinion leave me with my ass in the wind and facing criminal charges? God forbid that the perpetrator is black or a minority. Will I then have Jesse and Al lead a crusade against me and the perpetrators family sue me? These are all very likely events.

I know we all want to be John Wayne's and we want to have our honor and walk a hard line. But what happens when there isn't anyone left who deserves our honor?

I like to pick battles that I can win, and I just can't see that being the case with this scenario.

There are liability risks these days with everything you do. With society today being so litigious, I don't blame you for taking pause. I respect that perspective and I am glad that you are thinking outside the box and not walking around in Condition White like the sheep.. That being said, I think it boils down to a personal decision before hand coupled with situational awareness. I know I don't have to preach the last weapons safety rule to you (Know your target and what lies beyond and in between).


Also, I am on the level with you when it comes to honor. However, the best type of honor is not contingent on the perspective of others, and given or taken away due to their own tender sensibilities. It is something indescribable and intangible that lies within yourself. My honor will not come and go due to what the unknowing court of sheep decides on whether or not the sheepdog was involved in a good or bad shoot, or the unlawful or righteous kill. My honor lies in standing like a rock in matters of principle, and that includes the risk of prison or death for deciding to save lives.


Again, a personal choice...

[Airgator0470]

Another point that I'd like to bring up here is the legality for civilians. WHAT ABOUT IT? NO DIFFERENCE. I know the LEO's here said they would initially go in, or go out and come back in.

But you're allowed by law to do that, whereas the law does not favor us. IN FLORIDA THIS IS INCORRECT... FLORIDA LAW ALLOWS YOU TO USE FORCE, INCLUDING DEADLY FORCE, IN DEFENSE OF OTHERS. A DISPATCHER ON A TELEPHONE CAN NOT ISSUE YOU A LAWFUL COMMAND SUCH AS "DON'T GO BACK IN THAT BUILDING". If I decided to go in and intervene, I would theoretically be acting under law by using a weapon to stop a forcible felony from occurring to another individual. But would that hold up in court? READ CHAPTER 790 OF THE FLORIDA STATE STATUTES... YOU WILL FIND A "LAWFUL AUTHORITY FOR USE OF FORCE" ANSWER THERE. HOWEVER, YOU WOULD NOT BE OPERATING UNDER WHAT IS CALLED "COLOR OF LAW".

What if the only shot I could take ended up with the round going through the aggressor and striking an innocent hiding in a closet behind them. Am I now liable to face criminal and/or civil pursuit? CRIMINAL NO... CIVIL... MAYBE, SO WOULD A COP... NO DIFFERENCE. GETTING SUED DEPENDS ON WHO YOU HIT AND HOW THEY FELT ABOUT IT. WE HAVE A SGT THAT HIT A CARJACKING VICTIM... HE DID NOT GIVE TWO SHITS ABOUT BEING SHOT... HE APPRECIATED THE SGT'S EFFORTS.

What if I came across another armed citizen who was trying to intervene, saw his weapon pointed at me or another, and I engaged him? Would that not be manslaughter? IT COULD... IT COULD NOT... THERE IS NO 100% SURE ANSWER TO THAT ONE. SAME STANDARD IF I POP THE WRONG PERSON... I MIGHT GET A PASS, I MIGHT NOT.

I fully agree that I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, and not see innocents killed, but my faith in humanity is not what it used to be. CAN'T BLAME YOU THERE. Will the court of public opinion leave me with my ass in the wind and facing criminal charges? IT'S POSSIBLE. God forbid that the perpetrator is black or a minority. YEP. Will I then have Jesse and Al lead a crusade against me and the perpetrators family sue me? WOULD YOU EXPECT ANYTHING LESS? These are all very likely events. YES SIR THEY ARE.

I know we all want to be John Wayne's and we want to have our honor and walk a hard line. I DON'T SEE IT AS A JOHN WAYNE THING. But what happens when there isn't anyone left who deserves our honor? I WILL CROSS THAT BRIDGE WHEN I GET TO IT.

I like to pick battles that I can win, and I just can't see that being the case with this scenario. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS FROM YOUR OWN THREAT ASSESSMENT.

ADDED: IN FLORIDA... YOU (as Joe Q. Public) and I (as Jonny law) are NO DIFFERENT in the eyes of the law when it comes to using force to protect ourselves or another person. We both still must say WHY we did WHAT we did. The same laws that apply to ME apply to YOU. I would submit to you that I (a cop) would have a steeper hill to climb in the evaluation of a fuck up due to "training"... not that your experiences are ANY LESS than mine, and the fact most people just view cops as SUPER HUMANS who should NEVER fuck up.

One last thing... I think some of you guys are looking WAY TOO DEEP into that damn video...

[Frady]

ADDED: IN FLORIDA... YOU (as Joe Q. Public) and I (as Jonny law) are NO DIFFERENT in the eyes of the law when it comes to using force to protect ourselves or another person. We both still must say WHY we did WHAT we did. The same laws that apply to ME apply to YOU. I would submit to you that I (a cop) would have a steeper hill to climb in the evaluation of a fuck up due to "training"... not that your experiences are ANY LESS than mine, and the fact most people just view cops as SUPER HUMANS who should NEVER fuck up.

Bob- Respectfully, I'm not convinced. I agree with you that if reasonable people read the laws we would come to that conclusion. In practice, however, I don't know that things really play out that way.

Imagine we were having this conversation a couple years ago and we asked how to law protected us if we saw someone walking through the neighborhood and followed them to see what they were up to. As we now know, a "wannabe cop" doesn't get treated with the same perspective of a real cop.

[Airgator0470]

Bob- Respectfully, I'm not convinced. I agree with you that if reasonable people read the laws we would come to that conclusion. In practice, however, I don't know that things really play out that way.

Imagine we were having this conversation a couple years ago and we asked how to law protected us if we saw someone walking through the neighborhood and followed them to see what they were up to. As we now know, a "wannabe cop" doesn't get treated with the same perspective of a real cop.

I know what you are saying... BUT... You're mixing CIRCUMSTANCES. The case you are referring to was NOT a case involving a citizen involving themselves with an active shooter. The topic/point of the thread is CIVILIANS using force to inject themselves into an ACTIVE SHOOTER situation and then using force.

You have just as much "authority" to "use force to protect" as any cop does... and your actions and the results face the same legal test as a cops would. Perhaps you misunderstood the context of my post.

[Dale Gribble]

ADDED: IN FLORIDA... YOU (as Joe Q. Public) and I (as Jonny law) are NO DIFFERENT in the eyes of the law when it comes to using force to protect ourselves or another person. We both still must say WHY we did WHAT we did. The same laws that apply to ME apply to YOU. I would submit to you that I (a cop) would have a steeper hill to climb in the evaluation of a fuck up due to "training"... not that your experiences are ANY LESS than mine, and the fact most people just view cops as SUPER HUMANS who should NEVER fuck up.

Explain Roy Middleton.

[YankeeFingergasm]

Explain Roy Middleton.

Pretty sure they answered your question of Why and What they did.

[Dale Gribble]

Pretty sure they answered your question of Why and What they did.

If I shot a guy in his own driveway, in his own car, I would be in jail. We (citizens and LEO's) are not treated the same.

[YankeeFingergasm]

If I shot a guy in his own driveway, in his own car, I would be in jail. We (citizens and LEO's) are not treated the same.

Why would you a citizen be responding to a burglary in progress at someone else's home?

[Airgator0470]

Explain Roy Middleton.

I can't... I wasn't there. Were you?

[Dale Gribble]

I can't... I wasn't there. Were you?

Nope. But I can't imagine a situation where I would shoot a man in his car at his house and not at least be arrested.

If its all kosher than release all the data.

Sorry, I have trust issues with all government. Cops, and Courts are part of that. Individuals that I've dealt with from those realms have ranged from the very trustworthy to one step above scumbag.