Range report: TRPC 4/18

Visited TRPC as a guest on Wednesday. I went through about 200 rounds of 9mm, and was left scratching my head.

I must be doing something wrong. I shoot fairly frequently, and when I shoot, I shoot a lot. But I'm lucky to be on the paper at 20yds with any of my pistols! I wanted to blame it on the guns, but that hope was dashed when another guest fired each of my guns, hitting his mark at 5, 10, and 20 yards, over and over again.

Rifles are no problem. I can hit my mark at 100yds with my crappy Tasco scope on my M77 MKII .30-06 over and over again (don't laugh, Jonstio, I proved it on Wednesday...). I know 100yds isn't long-distance, but it seems to underline the discrepancy between my accuracy with pistols v. rifles.

Flinching isn't a problem -- I got over that a long time ago. So, are there some rookie mistakes that I might be making that would leave me shooting with the precision of a bad guy in a Chuck Norris film?

Any tips are greatly appreciated.

Edit: I should add that I have a very real interest in improving my accuracy. As a CCW holder, I think it's my duty to be sure that if I should ever have to use my weapon, I hit my mark and only my mark. That's why my inaccuracy is eating me alive. Also, the guy who demonstrated that it was me, and not my guns, was a rookie shooter. He brought his first gun, a brand-new XD40, and on his first shot lost a chunk of knuckle to the slide. I showed him how to safely hold his pistol... then he showed me just how much I suck :(

Wow. The list of potential "problems" is long.

In no particular order . .

* - Anticipating recoil
* - Too much finger in the trigger guard
* - Not enough finger in the trigger guard
* - Not focusing on the front site

. . on and on.


Here . . this may help . .

http://www.lasc.us/correction_chart_logo_small.gif.jpg

Hmm... possibly all of the above...

What sort of training would you recommend to address this? I don't expect that I'll gain much just by reading (although reading about long range rifle shooting did help *immensely* with my rifle accuracy).

The thing that boggles my mind is that while I may not be able to shoot anything smaller than a 10" group at 15 yards, I can empty a magazine rapid-fire and have nearly the same accuracy as if I carefully aimed each shot.

Stick a 1 inch dot on your wall at home and stand back 10 feet. Clear your gun, Clear your gun again, and clear your gun one more time. Remove any and all ammunition to another room and clear your gun one more time. :)

Dry fire practice... Consider your stance, Put the gun in low ready, close your eyes, bring the gun up to the firing position and then open your eyes. Notice where the gun is aiming. Don't move your arms or upper body, shuffle one foot for or aft to get the sights on target. Repeat till you can bring the gun up and have it on target. Sometimes we just forget the basics and fight the gun to get it on target. Its frustrating - been there, done that. Proper stance is the first step. Once you are on target, engage the trigger and watch the front sight. Cycle the action and repeat till the front sight doesnt move.

Then make another trip to the range. If you are holding the gun up for more that 10 seconds you are probably thinking too much (I see it too often)... stop, lower the gun. Take a breath and start over. Also, watch the death grip on the gun - that can mess you up too. Justa couple observations. Jim

Thanks for the tips!

I recall from a long range shooting guide that I read something about finding the rifle's "position of natural rest" or something like that. It certainly works for rifles -- get the gun to where it's on target without any muscle input from the shooter. It sounds like a similar concept to what you're calling "fighting the gun."

[quote author=haireola link=topic=72.msg538#msg538 date=1334940107]
Thanks for the tips!

I recall from a long range shooting guide that I read something about finding the rifle's "position of natural rest" or something like that. It certainly works for rifles -- get the gun to where it's on target without any muscle input from the shooter. It sounds like a similar concept to what you're calling "fighting the gun."
[/quote]


Exactly. "Natural point of aim" - you may also have heard of it being referred to as that.

. . . interestingly . . . and because I'm famous for my training rants and wouldn't want to let anyone down . . :-*


Right after you learn that - which you DO need to learn - you should start working to forget it.

Don't harbor the delusion for even one second that should you need to use your handgun in defense of life that you will have time to get into ANY particular position. Upside down backwards between your knees while standing on one foot in an ant bed, needs to work as well as the carefully formed Isosolies or Weaver.

That WILL COME with time and familiarization . . .and a bazillion hours of dry fire, and rounds sent down range. At this point just keep in mind knowing how to find that natural point of aim naturally is key/paramount/really really important.


. . I know not of the intensity found in my better historical rants. :-[

"STOP! Once I've aimed carefully at you, I WILL shoot! Wait... hold on... almost there... alright, ready? BANG!"

Time to get some snapcaps I suppose. I practice offhand shooting, single handed, and (when I'm fortunate enough to have the range to myself) moving about and switching targets. I don't see much improvement, though. I think it's time to pay Talon a visit.

One thing that will help, in fact I would regard it as essential, is, no matter what your accuracy goal is for a longer range, move in close enough to the target that all or almost all shots are hitting paper. THEN you can see the complete pattern of your inaccuracy and work at tightening the group OR moving it to the point of aim, till you have done so to a sufficient extent. So long as you are dealing with ordinary terrestrial shooting in which wind isn't a major factor no matter if the dispersion of hits away from the point of aim is being caused by gun or shooter, decreasing range by half should decrease group size by half and bring it closer to point of aim by half, and conversely doubling range should roughly double the group size or distance from point of aim. Your "problem" could be as simple as you using a different sight picture as the "new shooter", or it could be a bezillion things combined. And if half isn't enough, make it a quarter, or whatever. Putting the muzzle against the paper is too close, but move as close as you need to... then... after you get it all figured out... back off from the target again. Another method to acheive the same result is to maintain the same range but increase the size of the paper target's area but that's usually less easy to do.

So long as you are missing "data" you are missing ability to interpret "data" and missing clues on what and how to adjust.

You can ignore the rest of this or not as you chose... but I never have and never will accept that dry firing has a useful and proper purpose. The fact that guns are now being made that cannot be decocked except by pulling the trigger is no validation, but rather just one more sign of the baleful influence of money over sense, cultural decline, and departure from what is righteous and holy. Materials now used hold up much better, but with a lot of older guns you risk breakage and in any case cause unproductive wear... plus adding some small element of additional risk... because to err is human, but to fail just one time to remember to clear the firearm, can be a downright catastrophe. I "heard" what was said about clearing... but I also know how often for whatever the cause, the refrain sounds, that "it wasn't loaded". When you dry fire you introduce another opportunity for human error, one I can altogether do without.

ensure the ball of the finger is on the trigger not the tip and not the joint

once on target exhale slowly and slowly pull the trigger so slow that you are unsure when it will fire

do this at close range 7yds or less if need be

this should reveal a pattern and then you may reference rumbler's chart for potential correction

the front sight is key - make sure you put it on the same spot each time

having someone watch would be helpful as well

Just out of curiousity where is your focal attention? On the front sight or on the target? If you are not jerking the trigger or anticipating the recoil and pushing the gun down, and your trigger finger is in the right place chances are you are looking at the target instead of the front sight. You should be so intently focused at the front sight that if there is lint on it you should see the lint.

[quote author=JMW4570 link=topic=72.msg532#msg532 date=1334931672]
Stick a 1 inch dot on your wall at home and stand back 10 feet. Clear your gun, Clear your gun again, and clear your gun one more time. Remove any and all ammunition to another room and clear your gun one more time. :)

Dry fire practice... Consider your stance, Put the gun in low ready, close your eyes, bring the gun up to the firing position and then open your eyes. Notice where the gun is aiming. Don't move your arms or upper body, shuffle one foot for or aft to get the sights on target. Repeat till you can bring the gun up and have it on target. Sometimes we just forget the basics and fight the gun to get it on target. Its frustrating - been there, done that. Proper stance is the first step. Once you are on target, engage the trigger and watch the front sight. Cycle the action and repeat till the front sight doesnt move.

Then make another trip to the range. If you are holding the gun up for more that 10 seconds you are probably thinking too much (I see it too often)... stop, lower the gun. Take a breath and start over. Also, watch the death grip on the gun - that can mess you up too. Justa couple observations. Jim
[/quote]

Right on!!

If you have a laser, put that baby on your gun an watch to see if it moves and where it moves when you pull the trigger.


[quote author=talon2 link=topic=72.msg557#msg557 date=1334966749]
Just out of curiousity where is your focal attention? On the front sight or on the target? If you are not jerking the trigger or anticipating the recoil and pushing the gun down, and your trigger finger is in the right place chances are you are looking at the target instead of the front sight. You should be so intently focused at the front sight that if there is lint on it you should see the lint.
[/quote]

True.

Try shooting with a pair of 2.00+ glasses on. It will help to exaggerate what Talon said.

If you would like, I would not be opposed to have an excuse to sling some lead downrange for a good cause.....

[quote author=The-S link=topic=72.msg560#msg560 date=1334970159]
If you would like, I would not be opposed to have an excuse to sling some lead downrange for a good cause.....[/quote]

I think I'll take you up on that offer. My schedule is kinda hairy this week, but maybe next?

I need all the practice I can get.