ACTICVE SHOOTER TRAINING COMPLETED

See, I thought he was going the Celtic route...

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Originally Posted by Frady

And it's just that simple right? :yup:

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Ultimately; yes.

Of course that is somewhat perspective qualified.

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Originally Posted by Frady

Someone gave me a really good perspective on whether to make that choice to get involved or not. Imagine for a moment one of the people we're talking about saving developed a curable form of cancer but they had no money and just needed $20k to live. Would you write them a check for their medications? If no, then why are you so eager to run into that situation with a gun?

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No, I would not cut the check. Yes I would run in to the situation. "Eager" is not mentioned by anyone anywhere, so I don't know how to address that aspect except to say that it is a sociopath that is EAGER to kill another human. I think that you may be confusing "willing to without hesitation" with "eager". But I assure you that they are very different things.

At least that is my opinion as one who has often stated they are "willing to without hesitation".

I say "no" to the cut the check part for three reasons:

1) Having cancer is not even close to being the same thing as "we were at the mall, Junior, Sissy, the baby and I, were just sitting there having ice cream, when . . . "
2) Social service programs abound to help with this. Even drug companies often subsidize treatment in exchange for allowing them to do research on treatment of the victim.
3) Obamacare. Remember that?

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Originally Posted by Frady

While not quite apples to apples, I think it's a great analogy for deciding whether or not to get involved. In all but the best of scenarios you're going to need to hire legal council and your name may get drug through the mud (ie: Zimmerman) before you finally get clear of all the legal hurdles. By the time you factor in attorney fees, lost wages, all the possible negative attention you'll receive and stress $20k might not even come close to covering it.

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Um, no. If you are charged with a crime "you have a right to legal representation. If you can not afford an attorney the court will provide one . . . " 'member that part?

Even a lowly public defender can present proof of training certificates into the prosecution proceedings.

As for Zimmerman having his life ruined. Yeah. Good point. My personal choice is; screw that. If they want to ruin my life let them have at it. I will be the one looking in the mirror every morning knowing I did my level best to protect Junior, Sissy, Baby, and Momma. That is far more important to me than what a bunch of racist assclowns think of me.

'course, I may be in the minority on that perspective..

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Originally Posted by Frady

I have had two instances in my life of intervening on behalf of an unknown woman getting smacked around only to have the crazy bitch come swinging at me when things went sideways. How thankful do you think the masses will be for your actions? Remember, these are the same people that suspend teenagers who step in to defend others being bullied for fighting.

I'm not saying I wouldn't take action in any scenario, but considering all the problems (LEO shooting you, legal troubles, thankless masses, etc.) I'd take a moment to really think about it before taking action.

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Personal perspective: "Screw the masses. They don't have to live in my skin."

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Originally Posted by crawdaddy34

Which is exactly the catch-22 I thought we would end up at...


SEEING officers approaching is one thing. In that case, I'm cool with all of the above.

But If I know that there is a guy wandering around in here with a gun, looking to shoot people, and all of the sudden someone behind me tells me to drop my gun and put my hands up, I'm gonna want to take a peak and see WHO exactly that is. If he's done up in full tactical gear with six of his buddies stacked off his left shoulder, all is good. If it's one crazy sumbitch with a rifle pointed at me, well I'm probably already screwed, but in an effort to save my own life, or at least take that fucker with me, me and my weapon need to be QUICKLY moving in a lateral fashion AND on the way to acquiring a target the SECOND he starts speaking... Which will get you shot at if it is LEO's...

So...
Option 1 is stand still and hope it's not the bad guy.
Option 2 is move and hope it's not the cops.





SIDE BAR - What's the rational for "Face away from approaching officers"?

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So as not to be perceived to be confronting or squaring off... in hopes the perception of facing away is less threatening. Just another thing to consider.

I think this relates some

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=4701 part one

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=6844 part two

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Originally Posted by 0utlaw

I'm supposed to hide under my desk and throw a stapler at the shooter, I seen the DOJ training video:sadwave:

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Ditto. Except I am required to lock my .357 SIG in the vehicle in order to hide under a desk and not fight back unless I am singled out. Then I am supposed to fight back vigorously with a pair of dull scissors or a stapler. I am so thankful they sent those videos out to the universities.

http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/c...smilie_145.gif

Well BB if you had that evil, high powered, high capacity, hair triggered, did I mention EVIL(?) handgun someone might get hurt :headslap:

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Originally Posted by 0utlaw

If I'm in a mall or other public place there is no way I would exit and re-engage. At work or other familiar places I can pretty much tell who belongs there and who doesn't, in a place full of strange faces I'm just as likely to engage a plain clothes or off duty LEO as I am the shooter and vice versa. If I see the shooter and I have the shot I'll take it but I'm not going hunting. I will try to move as many people as possible to safety and cover them as they go but when we are out we are out, but going back in Rambo style is just buying trouble.

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I'll stand by that and say I think we are pretty much on the same page

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Originally Posted by 0utlaw

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Originally Posted by 0utlaw http://forum.capitalcitygunforum.com...post-right.png If I'm in a mall or other public place there is no way I would exit and re-engage. At work or other familiar places I can pretty much tell who belongs there and who doesn't, in a place full of strange faces I'm just as likely to engage a plain clothes or off duty LEO as I am the shooter and vice versa. If I see the shooter and I have the shot I'll take it but I'm not going hunting. I will try to move as many people as possible to safety and cover them as they go but when we are out we are out, but going back in Rambo style is just buying trouble.

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I'll stand by that and say I think we are pretty much on the same page

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I agree with this but mostly just for my building.

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Originally Posted by Jafar

Another point that I'd like to bring up here is the legality for civilians. I know the LEO's here said they would initially go in, or go out and come back in.

But you're allowed by law to do that, whereas the law does not favor us. If I decided to go in and intervene, I would theoretically be acting under law by using a weapon to stop a forcible felony from occurring to another individual. But would that hold up in court?

What if the only shot I could take ended up with the round going through the aggressor and striking an innocent hiding in a closet behind them. Am I now liable to face criminal and/or civil pursuit?

What if I came across another armed citizen who was trying to intervene, saw his weapon pointed at me or another, and I engaged him? Would that not be manslaughter?

I fully agree that I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, and not see innocents killed, but my faith in humanity is not what it used to be. Will the court of public opinion leave me with my ass in the wind and facing criminal charges? God forbid that the perpetrator is black or a minority. Will I then have Jesse and Al lead a crusade against me and the perpetrators family sue me? These are all very likely events.

I know we all want to be John Wayne's and we want to have our honor and walk a hard line. But what happens when there isn't anyone left who deserves our honor?

I like to pick battles that I can win, and I just can't see that being the case with this scenario.

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The hairy part is for "Gun Free Zones" and they are all somewhat different. For example, a k-12 is the most problematic. But on a Florida University, with a ccw license, the possession of a pistol is a misdemeanor. However, that would require me to exit retrieve and re-enter the building. That can also be problematic. It means I have either left students etc. behind, or I have already brought them out when I exited.

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Originally Posted by Jafar

Another point that I'd like to bring up here is the legality for civilians. I know the LEO's here said they would initially go in, or go out and come back in.

But you're allowed by law to do that, whereas the law does not favor us. If I decided to go in and intervene, I would theoretically be acting under law by using a weapon to stop a forcible felony from occurring to another individual. But would that hold up in court?

What if the only shot I could take ended up with the round going through the aggressor and striking an innocent hiding in a closet behind them. Am I now liable to face criminal and/or civil pursuit?

What if I came across another armed citizen who was trying to intervene, saw his weapon pointed at me or another, and I engaged him? Would that not be manslaughter?

I fully agree that I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, and not see innocents killed, but my faith in humanity is not what it used to be. Will the court of public opinion leave me with my ass in the wind and facing criminal charges? God forbid that the perpetrator is black or a minority. Will I then have Jesse and Al lead a crusade against me and the perpetrators family sue me? These are all very likely events.

I know we all want to be John Wayne's and we want to have our honor and walk a hard line. But what happens when there isn't anyone left who deserves our honor?

I like to pick battles that I can win, and I just can't see that being the case with this scenario.

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There are liability risks these days with everything you do. With society today being so litigious, I don't blame you for taking pause. I respect that perspective and I am glad that you are thinking outside the box and not walking around in Condition White like the sheep.. That being said, I think it boils down to a personal decision before hand coupled with situational awareness. I know I don't have to preach the last weapons safety rule to you (Know your target and what lies beyond and in between).


Also, I am on the level with you when it comes to honor. However, the best type of honor is not contingent on the perspective of others, and given or taken away due to their own tender sensibilities. It is something indescribable and intangible that lies within yourself. My honor will not come and go due to what the unknowing court of sheep decides on whether or not the sheepdog was involved in a good or bad shoot, or the unlawful or righteous kill. My honor lies in standing like a rock in matters of principle, and that includes the risk of prison or death for deciding to save lives.


Again, a personal choice...