ACTICVE SHOOTER TRAINING COMPLETED

[Greg Kulbick]

How do you think the media would spin it? "Man leaves survivors behind, retrieves gun and rushes to fullfill vigilante bloodlust."

[DaveW]

Maybe age has turned me into a coward.

No, experience and observation has turned you into a justifiably cynical realist. As I posted on Yahoo News, "If it is not fair to expect others to provide for themselves, how is it fair to expect others to provide for them?"

[Airgator0470]

Another point that I'd like to bring up here is the legality for civilians. WHAT ABOUT IT? NO DIFFERENCE. I know the LEO's here said they would initially go in, or go out and come back in.

But you're allowed by law to do that, whereas the law does not favor us. IN FLORIDA THIS IS INCORRECT... FLORIDA LAW ALLOWS YOU TO USE FORCE, INCLUDING DEADLY FORCE, IN DEFENSE OF OTHERS. A DISPATCHER ON A TELEPHONE CAN NOT ISSUE YOU A LAWFUL COMMAND SUCH AS "DON'T GO BACK IN THAT BUILDING". If I decided to go in and intervene, I would theoretically be acting under law by using a weapon to stop a forcible felony from occurring to another individual. But would that hold up in court? READ CHAPTER 790 OF THE FLORIDA STATE STATUTES... YOU WILL FIND A "LAWFUL AUTHORITY FOR USE OF FORCE" ANSWER THERE. HOWEVER, YOU WOULD NOT BE OPERATING UNDER WHAT IS CALLED "COLOR OF LAW".

What if the only shot I could take ended up with the round going through the aggressor and striking an innocent hiding in a closet behind them. Am I now liable to face criminal and/or civil pursuit? CRIMINAL NO... CIVIL... MAYBE, SO WOULD A COP... NO DIFFERENCE. GETTING SUED DEPENDS ON WHO YOU HIT AND HOW THEY FELT ABOUT IT. WE HAVE A SGT THAT HIT A CARJACKING VICTIM... HE DID NOT GIVE TWO SHITS ABOUT BEING SHOT... HE APPRECIATED THE SGT'S EFFORTS.

What if I came across another armed citizen who was trying to intervene, saw his weapon pointed at me or another, and I engaged him? Would that not be manslaughter? IT COULD... IT COULD NOT... THERE IS NO 100% SURE ANSWER TO THAT ONE. SAME STANDARD IF I POP THE WRONG PERSON... I MIGHT GET A PASS, I MIGHT NOT.

I fully agree that I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, and not see innocents killed, but my faith in humanity is not what it used to be. CAN'T BLAME YOU THERE. Will the court of public opinion leave me with my ass in the wind and facing criminal charges? IT'S POSSIBLE. God forbid that the perpetrator is black or a minority. YEP. Will I then have Jesse and Al lead a crusade against me and the perpetrators family sue me? WOULD YOU EXPECT ANYTHING LESS? These are all very likely events. YES SIR THEY ARE.

I know we all want to be John Wayne's and we want to have our honor and walk a hard line. I DON'T SEE IT AS A JOHN WAYNE THING. But what happens when there isn't anyone left who deserves our honor? I WILL CROSS THAT BRIDGE WHEN I GET TO IT.

I like to pick battles that I can win, and I just can't see that being the case with this scenario. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS FROM YOUR OWN THREAT ASSESSMENT.

ADDED: IN FLORIDA... YOU (as Joe Q. Public) and I (as Jonny law) are NO DIFFERENT in the eyes of the law when it comes to using force to protect ourselves or another person. We both still must say WHY we did WHAT we did. The same laws that apply to ME apply to YOU. I would submit to you that I (a cop) would have a steeper hill to climb in the evaluation of a fuck up due to "training"... not that your experiences are ANY LESS than mine, and the fact most people just view cops as SUPER HUMANS who should NEVER fuck up.

One last thing... I think some of you guys are looking WAY TOO DEEP into that damn video...

[OscarMike1127]

Jafar - I hope you didn't take that as disrespect. I was simply giving my own perspective in conjunction with yours. Being a warrior or sheepdog (or both) is a blessing and a curse. A gift with heavy responsibility.

What at a great discussion this is!

[0utlaw]

If you think you can hurt his feeling THAT easy, you have a rude wake up coming

[FLT]

If you think you can hurt his feeling THAT easy, you have a rude wake up coming

What feelings? He gave those up years ago!

[Airgator0470]

Bob, you know I would shoot up the whole world with you, right?

I know... I just wanted to make sure you, as a civilian, realize you have just as much to gain or lose as a cop does by thrusting yourself into a situation... and you have the same playing field regarding use of force as I do.

Risk... everyone has to define it in their own way and assess the good/bad, pros/cons, on their own terms.

[Rumbler]

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/Ma...250998651.html


Man shoots himself in the head at Lake City pawn shop.

Upon reading this my first reaction was to be angry at the pawn shop guy. Why?

Because the "customer" took the shotgun, loaded it, stepped back (apparently) and at that point the pawn shop guy had not excised at least the top of the "customer's" head.

I guess the pawn shop guy was waiting to see if the "customer" was going to shoot him, or himself.

Dang. Stupid mistake, don't you think?

Why, you ask? Easy two word answer "OODA Loop". Maybe I am weird, but I can not imagine ever intentionally putting myself behind the bad guy's OODA loop. It just makes no sense to me. In fact, I would bet that if I knew a "reasonable person" they would be inclined to agree . . . . .

Food for thought. Hopefully the relevance is obvious if subtle.

[Airgator0470]

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/Ma...250998651.html


Man shoots himself in the head at Lake City pawn shop.

Upon reading this my first reaction was to be angry at the pawn shop guy. Why?

Because the "customer" took the shotgun, loaded it, stepped back (apparently) and at that point the pawn shop guy had not excised at least the top of the "customer's" head.

I guess the pawn shop guy was waiting to see if the "customer" was going to shoot him, or himself.

Dang. Stupid mistake, don't you think?

Why, you ask? Easy two word answer "OODA Loop". Maybe I am weird, but I can not imagine ever intentionally putting myself behind the bad guy's OODA loop. It just makes no sense to me. In fact, I would bet that if I knew a "reasonable person" they would be inclined to agree . . . . .

Food for thought. Hopefully the relevance is obvious if subtle.

Excellent point... by the time someone's actions make you think "WHAT THE FUCK"... you're pretty much screwed/behind the 8-ball between the "WHAT" and "THE"... failure to act between the "THE" and "FUCK" is what costs the most...

[Frady]

ADDED: IN FLORIDA... YOU (as Joe Q. Public) and I (as Jonny law) are NO DIFFERENT in the eyes of the law when it comes to using force to protect ourselves or another person. We both still must say WHY we did WHAT we did. The same laws that apply to ME apply to YOU. I would submit to you that I (a cop) would have a steeper hill to climb in the evaluation of a fuck up due to "training"... not that your experiences are ANY LESS than mine, and the fact most people just view cops as SUPER HUMANS who should NEVER fuck up.

Bob- Respectfully, I'm not convinced. I agree with you that if reasonable people read the laws we would come to that conclusion. In practice, however, I don't know that things really play out that way.

Imagine we were having this conversation a couple years ago and we asked how to law protected us if we saw someone walking through the neighborhood and followed them to see what they were up to. As we now know, a "wannabe cop" doesn't get treated with the same perspective of a real cop.