worthwhile or a waste of time practices.

[mapper]

The further I get down the reloading rabbithole, the unanswered questions and diffrent opinions on procedures used ( especially the why behind it) seems confusing.
I have gone from plinking loads to trying to make match ammo. So it has progressed beyond basic loading.

And in each of the cases below, I have seen differing viewpoints, and it is getting harder to separate the worthwhile practices from the voodoo..

This is all in relation to rifle cases, and the intent is to produce match ammo for shooting groups for score,

So with that said, I would like to know what is important and gives the most benefit, and what does not, with the following assumptions:

All brass is same headstamp, same amount of firings,

When to consider annealing necks (on which firing)

Primer pocket uniforming: worthwhile or not

Flash hole deburring: worthwhile or waste of time

Turning or reaming necks: worthwhle or not

Using bushing dies with out an expander ball,
Or collet dies, or standard dies that are honed out in the neck
Worthwhile or not

Using premium brass like lapua or norma or equalavent

Checking and correcting runout

I know some go to more than this such as weighing cases, bullets and sorting them,
Measuring length with bullet comparators, and sorting

But I'm not ready to go do any of the above except for premium brass, (because I have it) if it does not make any REAL diffrence.

So, for the folks here that have either tried this before, or do it and notice a improvement, I would like their opinions.
I'm asking because I would honestly like to know how to make the best ammo I can for the time involved.
Thanks. I haven't seen this in the reloading 101 books I have, but have seen it on a sierra video of David Tubb loading ammo..
(I'm no David Tubb)

[Rumbler]

Mapper, I try to make my first and heavies measure: "Will doing ________ improve consistency and can I do (what is needed) consistently from cartridge to cartridge?".

As an example, I went from reaming out crimps to swaging them because I noticed that it was pretty darned easy to ream the pockets inconsistently. Besides the Dillon Superswage 600 is about . . .600 times, faster. :cool:

[mapper]

I ended up with case prep center and rcbs military crimp remover, as it is quick, easy, consistient, and does not overcut.
Besides I needed something other than a lee handheld chamfer and debur tool..
Thanks for the reply, the dillon is a nice tool for the job.

[Jafar]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not a reloader, but I have studied it intensely and watched like a hawk people who are excellent at doing it. But consistency will always equal accuracy.

As far as runout, I have a buddy of mine who hunts worldwide and allowed a fellow to load big game rounds for him. He went to Montana and it took 6 rounds to kill an elk 500 yards out. This guy doesn't miss. The guide almost kicked his ass all the way down the mountain and my buddy was pissed and humiliated. There was runout in the loads and it led to the round gouging the lead rifling just outside the throat and ruining the barrel on the $5000 rifle, just from firing a handful of shots.

[mapper]

J man,
This is why I'm asking..,thanks for the reply
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=556622&highlight=bullet+runout&page=2

[Jafar]

J man,
This is why I'm asking..,thanks for the reply
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=556622&highlight=bullet+runout&page=2

When he came back he called me over for a beer and told me what happened. Of course I asked him what was different this time and asked to to see the ammo. I took two complete cartridges and rolled them across the flat surface of a deep freezer in his garage. Looked like a wobbly tire on a jalopy.

I know there's a lot of good info on here, but there are also some great videos by TRex and 8541 (ref. "Mail Call") on the YouTube on a lot of these subjects.

[mapper]

J man,
This is the Sierra video with David Tubb I was eluding to...
Around 1:10 it goes into neck turning, and the benefits of less distortion to
The case necks when the expander comes out of the case.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NUnrYp0NH38&feature=youtu.be

[FLT]

<<<<< is not a expert. I start with new or once fired cases from the same lot I size them trim them to lenth de burr the flash hole I then weight them and separate them into lots by weight. I then load them and number each one with a permanent marker. I then shoot them in five shot groups any that shoot out of the group is set a side and has a letter added to the number on the second reload any that shoot out of the group a second time are discarded. I'm only about a minute of angle shooter but can pretty much do it on demand under most conditions. I only shoot 300 or so yards a 400 yard shot is really pushing it for me. There are some experts on this forum that will not shoot at that short of range I'm sure their case prep is more involved.

[Airgator0470]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not a reloader, but I have studied it intensely and watched like a hawk people who are excellent at doing it. But consistency will always equal accuracy.

As far as runout, I have a buddy of mine who hunts worldwide and allowed a fellow to load big game rounds for him. He went to Montana and it took 6 rounds to kill an elk 500 yards out. This guy doesn't miss. The guide almost kicked his ass all the way down the mountain and my buddy was pissed and humiliated. There was runout in the loads and it led to the round gouging the lead rifling just outside the throat and ruining the barrel on the $5000 rifle, just from firing a handful of shots.

How does MUCH SOFTER copper and/or lead damage EXTREMELY HARD ORDNANCE GRADE STEEL? Something sounds odd here... people shoot heavily damaged pulls all the time... they suck past 100 yards accuracy wise but they don't damage anything.

Bullets self-center as the enter they rifling so it's no big deal (run out) except in the accuracy department. I'd like more info on barrel type, bullet type, and just how much run out we are talking about. For a bullet to have severe enough run out it can be detected easily by eye... he should have had his ass kicked down the mountain for not checking his ammo knowing a long shot was in the mix.

Mapper... many of the things you have listed there MAY help... but to a discernible degree, who knows... only way to tell is your own testing. We discussed this in the reloading class... for me some of the tasks did not result in marked improvement so for the time cost/benefit, I found it not worth the effort.

[Airgator0470]

The further I get down the reloading rabbithole, the unanswered questions and diffrent opinions on procedures used ( especially the why behind it) seems confusing.
I have gone from plinking loads to trying to make match ammo. So it has progressed beyond basic loading.

And in each of the cases below, I have seen differing viewpoints, and it is getting harder to separate the worthwhile practices from the voodoo..

This is all in relation to rifle cases, and the intent is to produce match ammo for shooting groups for score,

So with that said, I would like to know what is important and gives the most benefit, and what does not, with the following assumptions:

All brass is same headstamp, same amount of firings,

Leads to consistency... falls into the "can only help" category

When to consider annealing necks (on which firing)

When you see split necks or a lack of a case holding neck tension

Primer pocket uniforming: worthwhile or not

Personally never found it to benefit

Flash hole deburring: worthwhile or waste of time

Personally never found it to benefit

Turning or reaming necks: worthwhle or not

Never needed to

Using bushing dies with out an expander ball,
Or collet dies, or standard dies that are honed out in the neck
Worthwhile or not

Never used any hi-speed dies... the bullet-centering sleeve like on the Hornady dies help to reduce run out

Using premium brass like lapua or norma or equalavent

Never used it... shoot plenty of fantastic groups w/o it

Checking and correcting runout

Probably the single most beneficial thing to do

I know some go to more than this such as weighing cases, bullets and sorting them,
Measuring length with bullet comparators, and sorting

But I'm not ready to go do any of the above except for premium brass, (because I have it) if it does not make any REAL diffrence.

So, for the folks here that have either tried this before, or do it and notice a improvement, I would like their opinions.
I'm asking because I would honestly like to know how to make the best ammo I can for the time involved.
Thanks. I haven't seen this in the reloading 101 books I have, but have seen it on a sierra video of David Tubb loading ammo..
(I'm no David Tubb)

Thoughts...

[seadog]

I reload much larger brass then is being discussed here so my case preparations are extensive. Primer pocket gets reamed to .318. Flash hole debured(both ends). Trimmed for length. Neck turned to .020 (for consistent neck tension). Cases weighed and separated in lots as well as bullets. When it's all said and done, I run each round through a Bersin device.

[Airgator0470]

I reload much larger brass then is being discussed here so my case preparations are extensive. Primer pocket gets reamed to .318. Flash hole debured(both ends). Trimmed for length. Neck turned to .0020 (for consistent neck tension). Cases weighed and separated in lots as well as bullets. When it's all said and done, I run each round through a Bersin device.

Do they sell those still?

[seadog]

I think so, I've had mine for about 8 years.

I didn't really give an answer to the OP, but i would say that consistency is the key to accurate reloading.

[mapper]

Thanks for the replies so far...



Currently I am decapping, sizing with redding dies using carbide expander balls with the mouths dipped in mica and decapping pins removed, lube is imperial wax, trimming, chamfering, deburring, brushing neck, primer pocket, and removing crimp with rcbs crimp remover, powder charging is with the charge master. For the time involved I have been satisfied with it. But now that I want to reach out a bit farther in range I'm wondering if it would make a diffrence to change my procedures.

So the stuff I'm asking about I'm not currently doing other than sorting brass by headstamp..and doing those by lots..

I know that this may turn into a question of "I wish I didn't ask", but either short of asking, or buying additional tools to debur flash holes, turn necks, and check runout to see if it makes a diffrence other than positively knowing that any sort of inconsistiencies have been put to a minimum within my control, and my wallet has gotten thinner.

If I go down this road, I want it to be a 100% repeatable, easy to use system..

So a powered solution would be preferable to a hand operated one. Even though it only needs done once.

[FLT]

You are going to need some way to check the quality of your work. One of the better tools for this is the NECO concentricity and wall thickness runout gauge. It's available from many sources but I got mine from Sinclair international. They run around $170 but will allow you to check any and all aspects of the case or loaded round.

[mapper]

So you like that better than the sinclair, hornady or other models?

[FLT]

I like it better than the Sinclair. I've never had a chance to try the hornady or RCBS.

[mapper]

So from what I have seen in the hornady, the neco, and the sinclair, the neco allows more movement of the indicator, to check more dimensions for runout, such as the inside of case necks..

While this would be a good check on the finished product, and a good tool to determine where more work is required, you still can't fix anything with it, just identify wher the problem is.

Which gets back to neck turning.....
I have seen diffrent models of those, from the k&m to the 21 st century..
I haven't looked at the other offerings, either in hand held models or lathe type..

If the key is consistiency, both in runout and in bullet tension, and turning necks takes the high spots off the neck and uniforms it to a desired thickness, that would allow less tension on the expander to pull the necks off alignment in the size die....

Good discussion, thanks for the replies as I'm learning things..

[Rumbler]

I'm not positive how relevant this is at this moment, but I believe it is an important enough concept that it needs to be clearly understood:

If you have a case neck that is thicker in one place than another and you resize that case neck without removing the thicker portion you actually introduce a concentricity problem.

Think about which part of the case neck is going to take less force to expand - or shrink. The thinner portion. Thus it is very plausible that even loading with $1000.00 each custom cut wiz-bang reloading dies, you may very well still have concentricity problems.

That's all . . . :p

[mapper]

Understood.....
I haven't got to the bushing die question yet, as it requires uniform neck thicknesses, to be able to chose the bushing for desired tension....

Just was at the can I take the high spots off the neck by turning and use a standard non bushing die to get better results part of the question..or does it need to be turned to a standard thickness..

(At this point being the average of the thinnest dimension on the cases I have, some lc, some fed,win,r-p,etc..

The idea here is that the neck stays concentric while going in as well as coming out of the size die.

[Rumbler]

Na, naw, naw; I hear you thinking "but wait! If the outside of the case neck is fully supported in the die how can that be?!?"

Two reasons, in no particular order:

* - Your inner stem (the part that goes inside the case) flexes. After all the case neck is supported on the outside by the dagum hunk of steel that is the die. That makes the inner stem the weak link.

* - If the "outside" of the die that supports the case neck was a ".000000" fit you would either not be able to get the case in or out of it without one heck of a substantial amount of force.

:cool:

[mapper]

And if the necks were uniform, and had a reduced diameter of 0.0005 to 0.001 that dadgum expander ball would not exert as much pressure inside the neck coming out of the die ( where it is not supported)

Remember, I was the guy having problems bending stems in my dies when decapping mil brass...
So I went to decapping as a separate step..

I'm aware of the stress that small diameter sizing stem gets..even lubed with a carbide ball on it :)

I just found this blog, and he discusses runout dimensions in relation to 600 yard groups in highpower..
http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/bullet_runout.html

So it looks like from 0.001 to 0.003 would be good..

[Jafar]

How does MUCH SOFTER copper and/or lead damage EXTREMELY HARD ORDNANCE GRADE STEEL? Something sounds odd here... people shoot heavily damaged pulls all the time... they suck past 100 yards accuracy wise but they don't damage anything.

Bullets self-center as the enter they rifling so it's no big deal (run out) except in the accuracy department. I'd like more info on barrel type, bullet type, and just how much run out we are talking about. For a bullet to have severe enough run out it can be detected easily by eye... he should have had his ass kicked down the mountain for not checking his ammo knowing a long shot was in the mix.

Mapper... many of the things you have listed there MAY help... but to a discernible degree, who knows... only way to tell is your own testing. We discussed this in the reloading class... for me some of the tasks did not result in marked improvement so for the time cost/benefit, I found it not worth the effort.
Like my preface said, not sure how the damage was done but the barrel was pulled and had major damage just outside the throat.

[Dale Gribble]

Like my preface said, not sure how the damage was done but the barrel was pulled and had major damage just outside the throat.

Perhaps flame cutting?

[Rumbler]

Obviously I have absolutely no way of knowing what damaged the barrel.

But based on my own experience I have seen water cut steel, break concrete, bring down structures designed to hold tons and tons and tons of weight. My point being; even though lead is much softer than barrel steel, it can still damage it.
Dang. Mythbusters exploded a barrel by sticking a "finger" in it. :p

[GrantA]

To cover some of the things you've asked, and I'll throw my "I'm no expert but have been reloading and researching techniques a while" disclaimer here, I'd say flash hole deburring and annealing combined with good dies (redding is good, I like my Forster seater with sliding sleeve) would get you squared away. Assuming premium brass, neck turning will just piss you off *unless you have a very tight chamber that needs the necks turned*, I had a hornady neck turner and an rcbs concentricity gauge, sold them both. K&M gets great reviews if you want to explore neck turning though. Check the reloading section on snipershide, there are stickyv threads at the top detailing lots of this, also if you're not on accurateshooter.com join there too. Lots of great references
I use an rcbs case prep center with a vld neck chamfer, primer pocket uniformer, and rcbs flash hole deburring tool (unscrew the handle and it fits the case prep center).
As with anything you can invest more money or time into it, you just have to decide how far you want to go down the hole and which you'd rather invest.

[mapper]

Thanks for the input...

Dies are redding standard non bushing full length,
have the micrometer seaters but not used them yet. Others are rcbs

Brass is lc..or sorted by headstamp commercial.
I do have some new lapua and new lc brass as well as new federal

Have rcbs prep center so flash hole deburring would not be tedious..I don't do it at this time though.
I do have hornady primer pocket uniformers that could be run in prep center..

I Don't turn necks at this time but have seen k&m as well as 21st century turning tools..
looks like a PIA, but with a power screwdriver still doable, if it provides meaningful results.

I Don't have a concentricity guage but the neco would be on the short list for what it does. Followed by sinclair

Standard dies and brass work for me so I haven't had to turn necks due to tight chambers

I have'nt annealled yet but have seen some info on using the tempalac and a rotating socket, or in time to a metronome..
I suspect I will have to do this more for the brass that is hard(er) to find than common calibers and I have less of it as well as it is being pushed harder, but it will still apply to other calibers.

When do you anneal is it every x number of firings, or dependendent on how hard you push them.

I'll check out accurateshooter and the hide..

[GrantA]

Brass is lc..or sorted by headstamp commercial.
I do have some new lapua and new lc brass as well as new federal
If you want tiny groups consistently without neck turning stick to the lapua, I can't comment on LC neck wall variations, perhaps someone else can?



Have rcbs prep center so flash hole deburring would not be tedious..I don't do it at this time though.
I do have hornady primer pocket uniformers that could be run in prep center..
I became a believer in flash hole deburring when I kept chasing big velocity spreads working up a subsonic 223 load. deburring flash holes got them tightened up, primer can ignite evenly. You'll be amazed at the shavings after doing it and it's a one-time thing.



I Don't turn necks at this time but have seen k&m as well as 21st century turning tools..
looks like a PIA, but with a power screwdriver still doable, if it provides meaningful results.
tell me when you're going to do it, I'll drink an extra beer or 3 for ya



I Don't have a concentricity guage but the neco would be on the short list for what it does. Followed by sinclair
neco gets great reviews, so does Hornady actually

Standard dies and brass work for me so I haven't had to turn necks due to tight chambers


I have'nt annealled yet but have seen some info on using the tempalac and a rotating socket, or in time to a metronome..
I suspect I will have to do this more for the brass that is hard(er) to find than common calibers and I have less of it as well as it is being pushed harder, but it will still apply to other calibers.

When do you anneal is it every x number of firings, or dependendent on how hard you push them.

If you're going for tiny groups anneal every time, it's not about brass life as much as it's about consistent neck tension. I have been meaning to work on an annealing setup but have too many other projects going on, plenty of videos on it, have fun!

[mapper]

Thanks...
So to properly turn necks takes beer while listening to ac/dc singing have a drink on me. :cheers:


See, that is the kind of advanced practices I was asking about. :yourock:

I have the back in black album/cd, but never considered it reloading equipment.. now I know :)