Shooting 400 yards with a red dot.

[Dale Gribble]

Ok, I've never shot over 100 yards without a magnified optic. The next 3 gun advertises 400 yards.

So I need to increase the velocity of my learning.

My thoughts on what to do..

1. I have a 50/200 yard zero on my Aimpoint. I don't want to change my zero (but I will need to verify it at 200 and re-adjust). So I will need to calculate a hold over for xm193 at 400 yards and learn what that looks like.

Question. What kind of target is optimal for a red dot sight at 200/300 and 400 yards. The targets I usually use with a quarter sized red spot will be useless I would assume because I won't see them.


2. Practice. I need help. I guess I need to practice shooting and getting into the prone quickly. Any drills/suggestions welcomed.


Oh, I just thought of something. I have a Matech BUIS on this rifle. Perhaps I should just set that SOB to 400m and skip the RDS on the long stuff?

[Rumbler]

Dale, what size is the dot? 1MOA, 2MOA, . . . ?

Even a 1MOA dot at 400 yards is a 4" circle.

A magnified crosshair type optic with a red dot on top of it for near and far, is probably your best "fast fix". And given your time constraints that may be the best solution. It doesn't have to be a night force and an aimpoint, Walmart will do just fine.

With that said . . .

The best way is to learn to use your iron sights as they were intended. But to do that well takes time. Plenty of time. . . . and consistent ammo.

[Dale Gribble]

Dale, what size is the dot? 1MOA, 2MOA, . . . ?

Even a 1MOA dot at 400 yards is a 4" circle.

The best way is to learn to use your iron sights as they were intended. But to do that well takes time. Plenty of time. . . . and consistent ammo.

Aimpoint Pro, 2MOA.

I don't think Razman will have us shooting for 2" groups at 400 yards at a 3 gun. I doubt it will be the small poppers he has had us shoot at 200 yards either (but I could be wrong).

Regardless, I prefer to run in a class that doesn't allow magnified optics. So it will be Matech or Aimpoint.

[Tack Driver]

Amateur tip: If the dot covers the target and you can't see it, the dot is too bright.

I like to use the irons for those ranges though.

[Dale Gribble]

Amateur tip: If the dot covers the target and you can't see it, the dot is too bright.

I like to use the irons for those ranges though.


I'm aware of that tip. However another one I read was zero (at 200 yards in my case) with the top of the dot, at a given brightness.

[Rumbler]

2MOA x 400 yards = 8" dot.


. . . you know that, right. I'm thinking that trying to drive a nail with a handsaw is probably not the best approach. Of course, I often find myself to be the only one with my opinion, so . . . . . ;)

[Dale Gribble]

2MOA x 400 yards = 8" dot.


. . . you know that, right. I'm thinking that trying to drive a nail with a handsaw is probably not the best approach. Of course, I often find myself to be the only one with my opinion, so . . . . . ;)


Again, its for 3 gun. Rules are what they are.

Everyone else in the same class will have the same handicap.

[Rumbler]

I see your point. Games have rules.


. . . I forget that easily for some reason . . . :o

[Dale Gribble]

. . . I forget that easily for some reason . . . :o

Because you are as stubborn as a Missouri mule?

Life has rules too. If for some reason a poodle shooter with a red dot is all I have to make a 400yard shot with when the fecal matter hits the rotary impeller, I aught to be prepared to use it. I know that marines and other folks in the .mil group can, so I expect I should be able to almost as well with proper training and practice.

[Rumbler]

Life only has one rule when you are shooting at a humanoid target.

And I never said or implied you could not hit "it". But you sure won't be able to pick nose or chin.

You nailed that "stubborn" part. :headbang:

[Dale Gribble]

But you sure won't be able to pick nose or chin.


Dude, I don't pick anyone's nose.

[Rumbler]

Might consider it, it may lead to untold fame. :cool::roflmao:

[Johnny]

We need a nomination for nose picker award>

[simmoag]

Ok, I've never shot over 100 yards without a magnified optic. The next 3 gun advertises 400 yards.

So I need to increase the velocity of my learning.

My thoughts on what to do..

1. I have a 50/200 yard zero on my Aimpoint. I don't want to change my zero (but I will need to verify it at 200 and re-adjust). So I will need to calculate a hold over for xm193 at 400 yards and learn what that looks like.

Question. What kind of target is optimal for a red dot sight at 200/300 and 400 yards. The targets I usually use with a quarter sized red spot will be useless I would assume because I won't see them.


2. Practice. I need help. I guess I need to practice shooting and getting into the prone quickly. Any drills/suggestions welcomed.


Oh, I just thought of something. I have a Matech BUIS on this rifle. Perhaps I should just set that SOB to 400m and skip the RDS on the long stuff?


I have shot man sized steel painted white at 350yards with an Eotech and it was hard as hell. 200yards is easy for me to hit with BC zone sized steel but past that I really need magnification to be effective. If you can't get magnification then do the best you can. Who knows you might do pretty good. :dunno:

[Evil_McNasty]

I have been thinking about this as well. My conclusion: hopefully Razz picks a large steel target.

[Dale Gribble]

I hope so too. But hope doesn't lead to shit.

So far it looks like prone using the magazine as a monopod is the best method for shooting this.

For zeroing the scope at 200 or more yards, I am wondering what the best target to use is. I'm thinking a black circle about 1 or 2 MOA bigger than what the dot will appear as would work. But I really have no idea.

Anyone?

[Tack Driver]

Dale, I've recently switched to the 36/300 yard zero. You might want to look at it.

[Tack Driver]

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h176/millsusaf/AR15Zero.jpg

[Dale Gribble]

Dale, I've recently switched to the 36/300 yard zero. You might want to look at it.

I've thought about it.

[Rumbler]

Dale, I've recently switched to the 36/300 yard zero. You might want to look at it.


Tack 'ol buddy if you are talking about "combat zero" that is 25 meters and 300 meters. I use it for my poodle shooter and with M855 it is right on the dot.

I know that you are smart enough to figure this out on your own but I jumped on one of the free online conversion calculators:

25m = 27yd 1.0210ft

-or-

82.021 feet.

[Dale Gribble]

Here is a video I found that finally answers one of my biggest questions.

What to use for a target. (2:10)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Jps523xU3ec

[Tack Driver]

Tack 'ol buddy if you are talking about "combat zero" that is 25 meters and 300 meters. I use it for my poodle shooter and with M855 it is right on the dot.

I know that you are smart enough to figure this out on your own but I jumped on one of the free online conversion calculators:

25m = 27yd 1.0210ft

-or-

82.021 feet.

..........and 274.32 meters.

25/300meter is 36/300 yard. Since we are in America..................

[Rumbler]

He is using metric bullets, silly.


well, you know; unless he wusses out and uses .223. :roflmao:

[NJC]

Dale,
Obviously you are seeing that you are pushing the envelope with this optic. This would be where a short dot or an acog would shine.

I have shot out past 200 with a 4 minute Aimpoint. It can be done, and consistantly on a steel IPSC target. here is what I did.

Dot brightness, way down...reduces glare on the dot, makes it seem smaller.
Decent ammo will give better results. Silver Bear may not get as many hits as q3131a
Good shooting position.. prone would be best, or off a bench ??

Most important... HAVE DONE IT BEFORE...IF you pop your cherry with this at the match... well you get what you get...You are not exactly light afoot.. so practice getting into and out of prone..find where your natural point of aim is , so you know where you want to be. After you have shot it a while and get used to the hold over, it should be no big deal to hit the steel... now we are talking hitting the steel... if you are looking for sub moa or anything... good luck.

Hope this helps....

[Tack Driver]

I'm telling you, fuck the dot. At 400, I'm on the irons.

But, with low brightness, knowing your drop, and understanding the center of dot is all that counts and you can do it.

[Dale Gribble]

NJC, thanks. That is my plan, and kinda why I posted this thread.

Last night I practiced getting prone with my AR.
I also put grease pencil on the feed lips of one of my pmags that I will use for prone mono podding and made sure that even with lots of pressure on it the bolt doesn't rub the feed lips. Some folks believe that the FTF's when using the mag as a monopod are caused by stacked tolerances that allow the mag to contact the bolt.

Hopefully I will be able to throw the 22lr bolt in the gun this weekend and spend a little time on the ground actually shooting at some steel. Next will be a trip to Talon in the next week or so.

I know I can change my equipment and do this more easily, but that isn't the point. The AR platform is more than capable of hitting man sized targets beyond 400 yards using rack guns and milspec ammo.. I just need to learn how to do it.

[Dale Gribble]

I'm telling you, fuck the dot. At 400, I'm on the irons.

But, with low brightness, knowing your drop, and understanding the center of dot is all that counts and you can do it.

I am going to try using the Matech as well. It won't matter if I use dot or irons, almost 100% of the technique is the same.

[Rumbler]

I am going to try using the Matech as well. It won't matter if I use dot or irons, almost 100% of the technique is the same.


I agree with you, Dale.

The only part that is different is the part that is required to make the hits go where you intend them to. :p

[Dale Gribble]

I agree with you, Dale.

The only part that is different is the part that is required to make the hits go where you intend them to. :p

Uhh? The only part that I would think is different is hold over vs not. I assume that's what you mean?

[NJC]

I'm telling you, fuck the dot. At 400, I'm on the irons.

But, with low brightness, knowing your drop, and understanding the center of dot is all that counts and you can do it.

Tack, Yes, given the opportunity I would prefer the irons at that distance too..and in this situation he would definitely have time to do it. However I think Dale asked about a red dot at 400. All things being equal, if you actually have to shoot at 400, thas what scope guns are for.

[Rumbler]

No, sight picture.

One of the reasons Tack and I both are saying "irons" is because with a couple of clicks one direction or the other there is no difference between a 50 yard and a 500 yard shot in terms of where you align the top of the post.

On the other hand it is the user's option whether they make those clicks or they use hold over . . or hold under. Either way there is absolutely no substitute for spending the time behind the gun learning post placement in the circle closest to your eyeball.

Dot sights are not like that. Think of them as the iMAC of rifle sights - designed for people who for whatever reason do not spend the time learning what they actually need to know either way.

. . and before the shit slinging starts . . . my AR pattern rifles have EoTechs on them. But they would not if I didn't know how to use the irons efficiently. I personally consider the dot sights beneficial because they are fast to acquire, not because of their accuracy. In fact it is my belief that those two things are at odds with each other in dot style optics. And the further away the target is the less value the dot offers . . . . again, to me anyway.

[Dale Gribble]

Ok, thanks.

Again, I'm going to try both. I did reasonably well (for me) making hits at 175 with the dot, but I didn't have my irons even close to dialed in at that point so it wasn't an option.

[NJC]

Rumbler,
True but there are very valid arguments for red dots etc and it would be a long discussion, which i think is worth having... but not in a forum like this, too much typing...

[Tack Driver]

Rumbler,
True but there are very valid arguments for red dots etc and it would be a long discussion, which i think is worth having... but not in a forum like this, too much typing...

Speak for yourself Neanderthal. Some of us type faster than we talk.

[Dale Gribble]

Here is the question.

Is it possible that you could be patrolling with your rifle, prepared for CQB (IE you have a red dot) and get pushed into a situation that you HAVE to make a shot longer than 200 yards?

I don't care what it was designed to do, I am working on the limits of my equipment and me. 3 Gun (in this case) provides a situation that I am not prepared for, just like C4 has done with the recent low light shooting.

We must improvise, adapt, overcome and get hits on target. (with all apologies to real devil dogs)

[NJC]

I can type pretty quick, but I just think sometimes the important parts of discussions get lost in this medium... I think this is one of those deals when we SHOULD set a date and time, sit in the club house at Talon and discuss this, dirty tricks, life lessons, prepping secrets etc...


Dale..Yes...but remember ROE for a cop or a .mil would be different than for you.. very limited circumstances in which I could justify a shot at that distance, may not be necessarily tru for a .mil or you.

[Dale Gribble]

Dale..Yes...but remember ROE for a cop or a .mil would be different than for you.. very limited circumstances in which I could justify a shot at that distance, may not be necessarily tru for a .mil or you.

Come to the 3 gun and shoot limited. Then you will have the circumstances.

[NJC]

Dale... did I not answer your question ?

Is there circumstances.. yes.. other than 3 gun, yes. Our Military probably do it all the time. For what I do, limited circumstances when you would engage at that distances but they exist sure.

Good luck at the 3 gun

[Dale Gribble]

Dale... did I not answer your question ?

Dude, you are wound a bit tight. Just ragging you to try and get you to come out and try something.

Its cool man.

[NJC]

or you could just stand 400 yds away from me and let me try to shoot at you ??

[Dale Gribble]

So my first real test was at the 200 yard range at Talon. I didn't do it prone, too many other shooters and I dislike hot brass down my neck.

From the bench using a sandbag with the red dot and the Matech iron sight I was pretty comparable. My groups were around 10", with most of the spread being windage. I will need to get a spotting scope I can use when prone, or a shooting buddy.

Task is seeming not as hard as I thought, especially if I am shooting for a 18" gong. Of course none of us are sure what Razzman has in mind.

[Rumbler]

Damn, Dale. You did pretty good.

But I gotta say this . . .

wind at 200 yards on a range protected on three sides? Unless it was gale force . . . . nope. It wasn't wind. :(

But you still did pretty darned good for a beginner using the wrong optic for precision shooting. :headbang:

[Dale Gribble]

Im not blaming wind, just explaining how the group was shaped, spread horizontally vs vertically. I blame all bad shooting on the operator.