Cold Bore Shots and Other Disturbing Trends

[Rumbler]

The video trainer is up and running at Talon. Still trying to figure out how to run it - but it works.


I got my ass handed to me by a bunch of video squirrels yesterday. :cryer:


That experience drove home something I have been aware of but have failed to put sufficient energy (DEDICATION) into fixing.

"Warming up". "inaccurate 'cold bore' shots".

What I mean is this . . .

With a handgun I definitely warm up. I get better (faster/more accurate/more fluid) as I shoot.

With a rifle I am close with that first shot but I can not accurately predict EXACTLY where it will go.

I see one hell of a problem with that. Don't you? . . . . . . . . .

[BR549]

I know you'll say "COME OUT AND SEE!" but can you tell us what the name of this video system is? Sounds interesting.

[Dale Gribble]

All things can be improved with training.

[Rumbler]

I know you'll say "COME OUT AND SEE!" but can you tell us what the name of this video system is? Sounds interesting.


I'll be happy to. I got to name it!

"Son of a BITCH!"


Or: "you SOB" for short. :p


Honest I was so busy having fun (and getting my butt kicked by squirrels) yesterday I forgot to look.

But I do know you guys will be proud of me for this:


The first hostage drill I shot, I got the hostage twice in the nose and once right in the middle of the forehead.


. . ain't going to be any testimony to be concerned about from them!:doh:

[0utlaw]

What do you do? WHAT DO YOU DO?




Shoot the hostage!

[Rumbler]

What can I say. They moved. I didn't tell them to do that.


Paper targets don't move! :p

[0utlaw]

That is actually Keenunu Reeves from the first Speed movie

[Dale Gribble]

The ecxpert from a boom that I posted about navy seal snipers training includes a bit on a cold bore exercise they did every morning. It is most sensible.

[YankeeFingergasm]

Cold shooter or cold bore? They're not one in the same. If you develop a routine say, getting behind the scope and just breathing, close eyes, open eyes, check for natural POI and that's being repeated with each cycle, then drying firing using the same principles and you feel effectively warmed up proceed to taking your shot. Now, if you track your first one or two shots over several sessions you'll see a pattern develop most likely.

[Dale Gribble]

It was both.

[Rumbler]

Regarding the long gun; cold bore.

Not a doubt in my mind regarding the handgun it is a cold shooter.


Astute observation Mike. I'm proud of you. :yay:


This was sent to me via PM. Not sure why, but it seems obvious the sender would rather not be 'outed' so I can't really attribute it. But none the less . . it learnt me somethin.

BowHunter clarified the practical need for a logbook, and I have built one - though I have not been as meticulous as I should have been about noting data.

Anyway . . . historically I have all but ignored cold bore shots. I put the dot on the sheet for that first shot, but that has been about it.

I will admit; sometimes I'm just an old fashioned dumbass. For someone who strives to think things through . . . I've sure screwed the pooch on this one.


Anyway, highly recommend that anyone really interested in making that first shot count read this. Then do as I have done and commit to doing just that:


http://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/63019-carlos-hathcock-method-sighting-rifle.html

[YankeeFingergasm]

I like to believe my sensei would be proud of my answer.

[TargetShooting]

http://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/63019-carlos-hathcock-method-sighting-rifle.html

Even to recreational shooters like myself, it's a fucking great read!

I am off to office depot for pens and notebooks.

[Rumbler]

http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/index.php/library/


Hold on there big feller.


Our friends over at Sniper Voodo have ready to print data book pages FOR FREE with places to put all the appropriate data and all the other stuff too.

[YankeeFingergasm]

http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/index.php/library/


Hold on there big feller.


Our friends over at Sniper Voodo have ready to print data book pages FOR FREE with places to put all the appropriate data and all the other stuff too.


I can vouch for that. TallyFSD and I printed out several things from there and had Kinko's bind it for like $4 i think.

[TargetShooting]

I can vouch for that. TallyFSD and I printed out several things from there and had Kinko's bind it for like $4 i think.

http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/index.php/library/

What exactly do I need for my PR rifles Yankee? Need some wisdom here 8|

[YankeeFingergasm]

http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/index.php/library/

What exactly do I need for my PR rifles Yankee? Need some wisdom here 8|

I'll show the books we made at C4 on Saturday.

[TargetShooting]

I'll show the books we made at C4 on Saturday.

Cool.

And if you kindly insist to help me by making one for me, I'll buy dinner (take whoever with you) after C4 - Japanese. :cool:

[Evil_McNasty]

If the simulator is anything like the one at Pat Thomas, it should be fun.

On the note of 'cold shooter', I always practice drawing and aiming my (unloaded) service weapon 10 times or so before going on shift. Sometimes dry fire with a snap cap as well. Getting out of the holster smoothly is the most important thing for me.

[seadog]

Good read. Anyone interested in refining they're shooting skills needs to keep detailed logs on not only cold bore shots but also follow up shots. As the barrel heats up it tends to walk,up,down,left,right. Every barrel is different even from the same manufacturer. I guess the bottom line is know your weapon . Android phones suck for typing with fat fingers!

[polebarn]

This was sent to me via PM. Not sure why, but it seems obvious the sender would rather not be 'outed' so I can't really attribute it. But none the less . . it learnt me somethin.



Anyway, highly recommend that anyone really interested in making that first shot count read this. Then do as I have done and commit to doing just that:


http://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/63019-carlos-hathcock-method-sighting-rifle.html

You're welcome.

[AB]

One day I'll make the time to learn rifle/scope stuff!

[Airgator0470]

Cold shooter or cold bore? They're not one in the same. If you develop a routine say, getting behind the scope and just breathing, close eyes, open eyes, check for natural POI and that's being repeated with each cycle, then drying firing using the same principles and you feel effectively warmed up proceed to taking your shot. Now, if you track your first one or two shots over several sessions you'll see a pattern develop most likely.

Most excellent post Yankeeson....

That's exactly what we do at some of our training sessions at work (dry fire prior to live fire).

While firing a cold bore shot quickly under stress is ALSO a big part of our training, lots can be accomplished with dry fire exercises as you described.

[Rumbler]

OK. Time for a slice of humble pie.

I went to the range yesterday morning to fire one shot and one shot only.

I got everything setup just the way I wanted it, put the crosshair right on the end of the target's nose and carefully broke the shot. I missed the target by a full three inches. If the bad guy had really big ears (it did not), I might have pierced one of them.

This was a bit of a surprise to me. :rolleyes:


Of course, my first thought after "WTF!?!?!?!?!" was "Wow. That cold bore shot is wilder than I remember it!" And even as I was saying that to myself I was already thinking: "no dumbass - you screwed something up."

To make a long painful story shorter . . . . A few weeks ago I finally bought the levels to actually level the reticle. So I did. But when I was finished the pro shop had gotten very busy so I put the gun back in the safe rather than taking it out and rezeroing it. Then completely forgot about doing it.


The next time I say I have never acted negligently with a firearm one of you folks smack me. I would have grabbed that rifle and used it without hesitation should the need have arisen. Seriously.:aaaaargh:

[YankeeFingergasm]

OK. Time for a slice of humble pie.

I went to the range yesterday morning to fire one shot and one shot only.

I got everything setup just the way I wanted it, put the crosshair right on the end of the target's nose and carefully broke the shot. I missed the target by a full three inches. If the bad guy had really big ears (it did not), I might have pierced one of them.

This was a bit of a surprise to me. :rolleyes:


Of course, my first thought after "WTF!?!?!?!?!" was "Wow. That cold bore shot is wilder than I remember it!" And even as I was saying that to myself I was already thinking: "no dumbass - you screwed something up."

To make a long painful story shorter . . . . A few weeks ago I finally bought the levels to actually level the reticle. So I did. But when I was finished the pro shop had gotten very busy so I put the gun back in the safe rather than taking it out and rezeroing it. Then completely forgot about doing it.


The next time I say I have never acted negligently with a firearm one of you folks smack me. I would have grabbed that rifle and used it without hesitation should the need have arisen. Seriously.:aaaaargh:

Which reminds me.....when dialing in dope remember to return to zero. Especially if you've dialed in dope then say move to a further target and add the dope on top of it.

Example:
2 mils at 400 yards
3.5 mils at 575 yards

If you don't account for the first 2 mils you dialed and add 3.5 more you've now added 5.5 mils.

Just trying to explain what I meant.

[Rumbler]

Are you channeling Mark Wahlberg in "The Shooter"? :chinscratch:


. . just teasing. :rolleyes:

[TargetShooting]

YF please bring several blank books you made - I will buy Japanese. :satanevil:

[Rumbler]

"Japanese" ??

What is up with that?

All this time I have been thinking that you are Australian!:omfg:

[Rumbler]

Update.

I got my remmy 700 zeroed for THE cold bore shot.

I fired three rounds today. All three very relaxed - no hurry. Took particular care to make every shot individually the very best shot I could.

The results are interesting. I look forward to seeing how consistent - if they are consistent at all - they are.

First shot - dead nuts right on the dot. Impact was just exactly where it should have been.
Second shot - 90 seconds later. Impact was almost 1.5 inches right; at exactly three o'clock. I could absolutely not have called that shot as 'off' when it broke.
Third shot - 90 seconds later. Impact was touching the second shot hole, toward the inside. Approximately one inch right of the cold bore shot at exactly 3 o'clock. I could absolutely not have called that shot as 'off' when it broke.

So . . three shots sharing exactly the same horizontal line but an inch to an inch and a half separating the cold bore shot from the 'warming up bore' shots.

I dunno about you, but I find this fascinating. I am looking forward to repeating the exercise tomorrow to see if and by how much it changes.

Shooting and learning is kinda fun, ya know!:p

[Cattle/Horses]

Any of you shooting bull/varmint barrels? I find them more consistent. Years ago I had an old M77 in 220 swift with bull barrel and it was the most consistent shooter I've ever had.


Rumbler, I've got an AR with a 20 varmint barrel I'll loan you to play with if you want to do any comparisons.

[TargetShooting]

I wish I have a 50 x 1000 sq yards property outside the city limit.

[Rumbler]

I'm using the Remington 700P in .308. http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/700p.htm

it is a heavy barrel. Whole dang rifle is heavy! ;)

Load is once fired FGMM brass, Winchester primers, 168gr Sierra Matchking bullets, over 43.2gr of IMR 4064. COAL is 2.877.

Once the barrel is warm, this rifle/load will shoot clover leaves - or better - at 200 yards all day long.

Let me see if I can find some .224 match quality bullets. If I can pull together match level ammo for that gun, I would love to do a comparison test. Heck, I would also like to get my hands on another Remmy 700 heavy barrel to test also.

. . . I guess my next obsession is going to be exploring cold bore variations. I'm bad that way, as you know. :o

[Rumbler]

I wish I have a 50 x 1000 sq yards property outside the city limit.


You are about to. A little birdy told me I am going to start doing some serious dirt relocation in the immediate future. We took delivery of 2500 cubic yards of very clean clay/sand fill about a week ago. It hasn't rained (substantially) in the last few days. Put those two together and a good road bed is not far away. :cool:

[TargetShooting]

You are about to. A little birdy told me I am going to start doing some serious dirt relocation in the immediate future. We took delivery of 2500 cubic yards of very clean clay/sand fill about a week ago. It hasn't rained (substantially) in the last few days. Put those two together and a good road bed is not far away. :cool:

Good news. Can't wait for talon's 400 yard.

[Rumbler]

You and me both, David.

Don't forget if you have not done it yet to get that qualifier target on file at the pro shop so that when the road out there gets done you won't have to worry about taking care of that first.

Three shots only on the paper. Inside a three inch circle. At 200 yards. Witnessed by a Talon pro shop employee.

The 400 yard range will be unsupervised, so we need to be able to prove the folks going out there are capable of hitting the targets.

[Rumbler]

The plot thickens . . . . .

Today I recreated 'the test'. Maybe I should say that I duplicated 'the test'.

Because you see, the rounds I fired today I overlaid on the rounds I fired yesterday. Of course, I used two separate targets.

So I set the holes in todays target on top of the holes in yesterdays target. I shit you not; the holes matched up so close that if they were different my eyeballs couldn't see the difference. Not even with my reading glasses on. Neither could two other guys I showed this to.

I shit you not. Not even a little bit.

If this happens again tomorrow I am going to cross "shooter error/inconsistency" off the list of potential causes. Definitively.

[madmitchell]

I am a witness. He cut them out and over laid them to a perfect match. My have to try my FP10 to duplicate. Good info Rumbler!

[YankeeFingergasm]

The plot thickens . . . . .

Today I recreated 'the test'. Maybe I should say that I duplicated 'the test'.

Because you see, the rounds I fired today I overlaid on the rounds I fired yesterday. Of course, I used two separate targets.

So I set the holes in todays target on top of the holes in yesterdays target. I shit you not; the holes matched up so close that if they were different my eyeballs couldn't see the difference. Not even with my reading glasses on. Neither could two other guys I showed this to.

I shit you not. Not even a little bit.

If this happens again tomorrow I am going to cross "shooter error/inconsistency" off the list of potential causes. Definitively.

Honestly I just think you're finding out how your rifle performs before warming up. I say try it one more time and you have your answer. Maybe one more time with holdover and see if it's dead nuts on. Then you'll know your holdover for cold bore shots and adjust accordingly after it warms up.

I had plans of doing this same thing today until I pulled a TS and left the 308 at the house. I gotta quit hanging out with that guy. :ponder:

[Evil_McNasty]

I would for sure believe in that rifle's consistent cold bore and follow up shots. I have a Browning 7mm Mag that will shoot the same dead center bulls eye at 200yd with the 1st cold bore shot. The 2nd round will ALWAYS be 2" to the right. Third shot is 3" to the right. Much like yours Rumbler. Very weird. But consistent. It has done this since 1994 when I bought it.

[Dale Gribble]

Stresses in the steel barrel as it heats up? I assume everything is free floated and bedded on a Rumber Rifle.

I remember reading a story about first shot flyers written by someone shooting 22lr, and after months what he found was a small ring of carbon would form during shooting just in front of the bullet's nose in the chamber. After one shot it was warm and somewhat flexible, but on the first shot it was hard.

So perhaps once you have determined it is the rifle (and it sounds like it is) you could try a cold bore shot on a clean bore and chamber. Its a lot of work and not something I (or I'll bet you) normally do (clean a bore that is still accurate), but it might provide a new data point and or obsession.

[TargetShooting]

I'll test my Savage 10 today. See what happens.

[TargetShooting]

1911

"Terrible" Cold Bore Shot by me, from old Savage 10 w/ a 9x scope. The rifle has been sitting in Talon's safe for a month so it's not zeroed anymore.
However the pattern matches what people discussed earlier.

I carefully fired the 1st shot, it's the hole on the left.
After about 1-2 minutes I fired 2nd shot, it's the hole in the middle, which is somewhat 1 or 2 O'clock to the right.
Then another 1-2 minutes wait, the 3rd shot broke. It drifted to the right at 3 O'clock.

Center -> 2 o'clock -> 3 o'clock, interesting.


After zeroed in the rifle started to behave. I want to reiterate that the "Gorilla Ammunition" is damn accurate. They should put "Match Grade" on their boxes because they really are IMO.


Here's a 12-shot group. Consider the rifle is old and dirty (I never cleaned it) and I am not a good shooter...the "Gorilla" is pretty decent 175gr 308 Win shit.

1912 1913 1914 1915

[Rumbler]

David, that rifle has less than a hundred rounds through it since it was new. Quite possibly, less than 50.


. . not counting what you have put it through. . . . I mean "what you have put through it". :roflmao:

[TargetShooting]

David, that rifle has less than a hundred rounds through it since it was new. Quite possibly, less than 50.


. . not counting what you have put it through. . . . I mean "what you have put through it". :roflmao:

can't remember but I think, a lot! I don't shoot like Dave W who comes to fire 3 shots and call it a day. :cool:

[Rumbler]

Three shots is a lot! Especially if you can catch all the bad guys standing single file in a line. :goodjob:

[Rumbler]

Who did he buy that piece of shit from? Heh


I dunno. The rifle I sold him is every bit as accurate at my Remmy 700P - it is a tack driving SOB.