Point Shooting... not me

[Airgator0470]

nosig's post and the article reminded me of Tom Givens' article on point shooting. As a general rule/tactic, I don't believe in Point Shooting per se and agree with a video posted some years back by Kyle Lamb, who after being in gunfights, recommends using the sights when ever possible.

I caught some grief at work when two other very experienced and seasoned instructors recommended we develop a "Point Shooting" training session. My pre-Givens' article response was you won't find my name on the training schedule for such nor will I be on the range during such training. When Tom Givens printed the below article, it swayed the guys maybe it's not a good idea after all.

The article suggests reasons why which I agree with ALONG with the fact in my business you're often dealing with the lowest common denominator... in short, you mention to someone it's "ok" to NOT use your sights, they won't... and then say in a post shooting investigation where the injured or killed an innocent person that they did exactly what they were trained to do.

This does not mean to say from 10' or less there is not merit to Point Shooting, Index Shooting, Threat Focused Shooting, Instinctive Shooting, or what ever fancy name you attach to the idea of thrusting your pistol out and firing w/o any effort to at least find and superimpose the front sight on your target.

If you look at many of the dash cam videos of shooting you can clearly see officers pulling the trigger while their pistol is no where near up on the sight plane... the result is a bunch of misses. I'm with Tom and Kyle on this.

http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/2017-07_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nGbN7RxpI&t=58s

[SGB]

I agree 110%

[AB]

I see it as the same trade-off you do. If your trigger control is good enough and your natural point of aim is developed enough, you can "point shoot" out to decent distances. Where I'm at, I start using sights as opposed to being simply aware of them around seven yards.

There were some folks (from the FSU psych school, IIRC) that put a bunch of cops on eye tracking equipment and threw them into a simunitions environment and they said the majority of shooters could not take their eyes off the threat. They stayed target-focused through the entire encounter from start to finish. That caused a debate, again, IIRC, that should we train to what we know we are most likely to do and really focus on point shooting or should we train so hard that we have the discipline to use our sights?

I have always said that acceptable sight picture is a product of time, distance, and target size. Sometimes I just "look through the gun" on close targets. The target is my focus and the gun is in my peripheral vision enough to know it's lined up. Get a little farther out than that and I have a flash of the front sight just to make sure there is some daylight on both sides and go. As the distance increases or the target size decreases, I have to have a more refined sight picture to make it.

For those that don't know, the first four shots of the FDLE pistol qual are from the hip at three yards.

[Johnny]

3yrds yes but beyond that front sight,front sight 15yrds and beyond front &rear.

[Dirty Sanchez]

I just Yosemite Sam that shit. It is a variation of the burst presentation.
12801

If you don't pull the trigger, you've already lost.

[Airgator0470]

I see it as the same trade-off you do. If your trigger control is good enough and your natural point of aim is developed enough, you can "point shoot" out to decent distances. Where I'm at, I start using sights as opposed to being simply aware of them around seven yards.

There were some folks (from the FSU psych school, IIRC) that put a bunch of cops on eye tracking equipment and threw them into a simunitions environment and they said the majority of shooters could not take their eyes off the threat. They stayed target-focused through the entire encounter from start to finish. That caused a debate, again, IIRC, that should we train to what we know we are most likely to do and really focus on point shooting or should we train so hard that we have the discipline to use our sights?

I have always said that acceptable sight picture is a product of time, distance, and target size. Sometimes I just "look through the gun" on close targets. The target is my focus and the gun is in my peripheral vision enough to know it's lined up. Get a little farther out than that and I have a flash of the front sight just to make sure there is some daylight on both sides and go. As the distance increases or the target size decreases, I have to have a more refined sight picture to make it.

For those that don't know, the first four shots of the FDLE pistol qual are from the hip at three yards.

My real issue is some experienced and competent shooters who can point shoot beyond 7 steps want to teach it to everyone and I think that's a disaster in the making.

If you remember Izzy, the really big Sgt. on the team, he claimed at first he was point shooting by NPOA when in fact after he consciously thought about it during actual shooting, he smiled and said he actually is catching the front sight.

I look at point shooting as a "no other option" vs. a specific shooting tactic oriented at reducing engagement time. No way I'd teach it as a tactic of choice to the casual shooter let alone the cop on the street who shoots only at qualification time.

[AB]

I think so, too. Point shooting requires a ton of practice and the vast majority of cops don't put the time in on the range they would need to in order to count on it.

Last I heard, Bill Rogers still didn't have any dedicated point shooters clean his plate course. Unless you're at the very top of the point shooting game you're not point shooting 20-25 yard 8" plates.

For entertainment purposes only...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXX39ChdHvE

[Dale Gribble]

Back when we were doing C4 night shoots Rumbler suggested going with no light and point shooting. His logic was that pointing your index finger at something is very natural, and in low light situations close up you can hit the target just by pointing and using the middle finger for trigger.

I tried it, it worked ok, and I surmised that with a little practice is seemed reasonable to hip minute of person at reasonable distances without a light.

However, unlike him, I don't live alone, and I need the light to verify the target. So I didn't work with it much further.

[Evil_McNasty]

Im not a big fan either. But it just so happens that I was practicing this on Friday (subconsciously). My drill is with a flashlight in the left hand doing a search, the threat appears and I have to draw, extend the pistol, and put a round on target, right hand only. This is at 3-4 yards. Sudden and quick. I was having all good hits but realized after a few minutes that I hadn't once focused on the sights.
But for me and my limted skills, this can only be done at less than 5yds.

[Tango147]

AB hit on it about Bill Rogers (Rogers Shooting School). He is a former World rated "speed steel" shooter. I have no idea if the governing body where he competes even exists anymore. That said, the man can shoot. I have seen him fire literally hundreds of rounds at automated reactive steel targets (which limits their exposure time) and can count the misses on one hand. Most of those he hit with follow ups. He did that because he knew based on the sights he was off and made a correction. Based on the speed at which he does it, there is no spare time to "find the sights" because you missed. He will run a zero light drill where you hear the target swing up and orient towards it and fire. Essentially a "point shot" because you can't see anything. He would use the flash of the muzzle to light the area and show him his sights then correct and hit with the second shot. No BS. Seen him do it over and over.

He said he has seen some amazing point shooters in his day. He came from the FBI when some of the old range guys could shoot decent groups in the Rex Applegate crouch at 50 yards. However no point shooter has ever cleaned his range drills. He concludes that with thousands of rounds you can extend your point shooting ability to beyond conversational distance, but there is a point of failure in every point shooter and most handguns, with decent sights, can score hits at 100 yards on chest plates.

I was one of those lab rats in the fancy hat with all the cameras pointing at me in the FSU study. My eyes tracked to the sights. I would say in part, because that is what I was trained to do, but also in part because I consciously recognized there was no pain or death penalty for failure and the gun was the only tool they gave me.

So my conclusion is always train to find and align during the firing process for any shooting position where the sights can be found. Sure, some may break on the rise but ultimately you are working that trigger and weapon into the sighted orientation. Some targets do not give you feedback and without that feedback and without using the sights then you have no idea what correction to make for effect.

Many a hopeful magazine has been dumped down range in bewilderment over no decent hits despite the fact the shooter "felt" like they were pointing the gun right at them. I have recruits spend the entire first magazine "pointing" at hostile role players and only realize when they have to reload that perhaps one sighted shot would solve their problem.

If God has so engineered me to sometimes find my sights and other times not under high stress, well there is nothing else I can do about it.