AR15/CARBINE CLASS Feb 13th/14th

[Airgator0470]

If you have signed up for this class, please keep an eye out for a confirmation e-mail... please respond to the e-mail as I'm getting ready to make the Training Certificates and support materials folders.

THANKS...

Bob

[Airgator0470]

Class was a success... appears everyone had a good time and there were no injuries.

Was nice to see some familiar faces and meet some new people... I'm tired, wore out, my feet hurt, and I'm sun burned... weather was fantastic.

[NJC]

Good deal.
Sun burn??

No problem shooting night time ;-)

[Airgator0470]

I had two failures in two rifles.

Failure 1 took the rifle out of the training. I had a Tennessee Arms poly lower where the safety selector became increasingly difficult to manipulate. I tore it down tonight, and it appears that the detent had put enough force into the hole in the receiver to make it oval, allowing the detent to rock in the hole instead of only going up and down. The selector is pitted all to hell now as well. This was a new LPK that was installed. I plan on contacting TA tuesday.

Failure 2 occurred in my lefty AR. Spikes lower, LPK unknown. I was getting random failure to hold the bolt open. First instance was with one of Bob's metal mags. Later this happened with 5/6 of my pmags. Upon inspection tonight, I discovered that the bolt hold open latch was sticking, to the point that the follower was unable to force it into a full up position. I swapped this out and now have correct operation again.

I shot the class left side because I am cross dominant with a stronger left eye. I think I was more accurate and faster on the left side to acquire targets and complete follow-up shots, but still felt more fluid and had better fine motor skills on the right. Overall, the ease with which I can focus on my left side leads me to want to stay on the left. Shooting with both eyes open was much easier on the left, and the controls are not SO much different that I was unable to find a way to make it work. I will say that the AR-15/M-16/et al were designed for right handed shooters. Manipulating the bolt, over the optic is difficult and I'm not really sure if I performed failure operations with my left or right hand.

Overall, I had a great time and think I learned a lot. The advanced class had a bit too much repeat info from the basic class. I feel the first hour was lost in order to catch up the people who opted to skip basic. The basic class was the perfect intro to the platform, both in the classroom and hands on. I shot basic with iron sights, and am glad I did. It gave me a good idea of what my limitations are with irons, as well as an indication that, in many cases, irons will be good enough to end a threat. I'm not driving tacks with irons, but I'm also not missing as much as I though I might.

We definitely learned what did not work. Namely, AK-47s did not work. 9/10 failures on the line were attributed to the one guy who brought an AK. Sure you can call it operator error, that's fine. Also, Bob hates the AK platform, as well as 1911's, and cheap mall ninja crap. Muzzle brakes have no business being on a home defense gun. SBRs are really loud, and pose a similar hearing threat to anyone, bad guy, or good guy, who may be in front on it. 2lb suppressors hanging off the front of a 16" AR, work, but suck to carry.

Thanks again for putting on a great class.

I appreciate the feedback. What specific block of instruction(s) or drill(s) would you recommend I drop from the second class so as not to have students feel time was wasted?

Keep in mind... the BASIC class and ADVANCED class, as scheduled and ran, are two "stand alone" classes. In training, I believe there should be a slight overlap/review from one session/class to another. When teaching tasks A,B,C,D,E the next class should start at D or E and progress from there... as a building block approach.

Constructive feedback is critical for any instructor wishing to improve... I'm all ears... I welcome any/all suggestions.

[Airgator0470]

On a side note... and for the record, I don't "hate" AK rifles or 1911 pistols. I own and shoot both... if I hated them I would not own them... I just think there are better options.

Once again, cheaper, unproven things failed in class. I mentioned to LS I was interested to see how his poly lower would hold up... It was a calculated statement which confirmed my suspicions. Poly lowers (AR) have a track record for problems.

[Bodo]

LS, how many round through that lower?

[AB]

An AK that failed? What was/were the problems?

[Danman]

An AK that failed? What was/were the problems?

Issue was the trigger assembly seemed to fall apart

BTW, there was a few AR issues too - one guy had to switch out his SBR (could not manipulate the safety selector) and then LS's issues as above.

[FLT]

Guns are a lot like kids and dogs.When you try to show other people what they can do , they'll inevitably embarrass you.

[NJC]

The TN arms poly lowers have quite a following. They are without a doubt the best poly lower out there.

There is not a lot of stress on the lower relatively speaking, compared to the upper. I am kinda surprised a detent pin under spring pressure could do this.
I will be interested to see what TN arms has to say.

[Bodo]

Yup, I have one. Would like to know a bit more before I jump ship.

[0utlaw]

Not saying this is what happened but I have seen detent springs get pinched while installing the grip and get "straightened" and reused and have so much tension you could barely move the selector.

[Airgator0470]

The AK problem was self-induced... THE MORNING of class, which is the worst time to start fucking with things, the owner tried to bend the safety lever so it would not bind so hard on the receiver... the spring that holds the FCG never was reinstalled properly... as far as I remember... so in this case, we CAN NOT blame the AK or platform for the problem.

I know for a fact he started the class with it that way... if any of you guys helped him change it later, I was unaware.

[Bodo]

Dude should have talked to jafar. He squared outlaws safety away in minutes...

[Airgator0470]

Dude should have talked to jafar. He squared outlaws safety away in minutes...

I told him "I know a guy in Thomasville..."

[Bodo]

I told him "I know a guy in Thomasville..."
Close enough?

[Dale Gribble]

Yeah, doing anything to a gun the day of the class or day of the competition is bound to bite you on the ass.

Its like a rule.

[Airgator0470]

Close enough?

30 minutes one way... he was a young kid... great kid... just getting started and learning like all of us had to at one time or another. I told him he had some choices... go get the AK fixed, go buy some .223 and use one of my AR15's, or see if the AK makes it...

[0utlaw]

I can understand why he wanted to get the safety to move easier, mine dang near needed a screwdriver to pry it on and off. My advice is, bite the bullet buy the Krebs and lock plate and never look back. It was an amazing change on mine, I would never have believed the difference if I hadn't seen it first hand.

[Dale Gribble]

Having taken Bob's AR class before, I highly recommend it. If I didn't have a previous commitment I would have joined you bastards.

[Jafar]

The AK problem was self-induced... THE MORNING of class, which is the worst time to start fucking with things, the owner tried to bend the safety lever so it would not bind so hard on the receiver... the spring that holds the FCG never was reinstalled properly... as far as I remember... so in this case, we CAN NOT blame the AK or platform for the problem.

I know for a fact he started the class with it that way... if any of you guys helped him change it later, I was unaware.

The shepherd's hook spring in the AK is a grenade pin; once you pull it, you're not putting it back in without something blowing up.

[Danman]

Maybe 1500.

I gave the kid my AK to run for the class.


Bob, I felt like the malfunction drills should have been omitted in place of more advanced skills. Failure drills are a basic skill that should be understood before attending an advanced class. I think we spent about an hour reviewing failures, addressing them, and shooting with dummies. I would have rather seen the dummy rounds injected elsewhere throughout the day, especially in the obstacle course at the end.

I would certainly recommend both classes to anyone wanting extend their understanding of the platform and advanced rifle skills.

I guess I disagree on the malfunction drills - I believe these are important even for advanced shooters.

[0utlaw]

At some point though you want to do the malfunction drills unexpectedly. knowing you are going to have a malfunction is a whole lot different than expecting bang and getting click.


Sure does help knowing when and where you're gonna be hit, sir. Sgt Maj.Choozoo

[e.money83]

so, would you have someone designated to load everyone's magazines, and they randomly add in a dummy or two or even an empty case(i assume this would likely induce a malfunction) in the mags?

[Danman]

so, would you have someone designated to load everyone's magazines, and they randomly add in a dummy or two or even an empty case(i assume this would likely induce a malfunction) in the mags?

That's basically what we did - took three or five mags and randomly loaded dummy rounds in each and then switched with someone else. Bob then gave the command to fire randomly and you had to react.

[Jafar]

That's basically what we did - took three or five mags and randomly loaded dummy rounds in each and then switched with someone else. Bob then gave the command to fire randomly and you had to react.

This is something that you can't do too much of. And to revert back to the original complaint, firefights are made up of complex dynamic situations in the manner of which Clausewitz said "makes the easiest of things so difficult."

Until a shooter can exhaust his fastest times in clearing malfunctions and reloading his weapon, all other drills are relative to the probability for them to present themselves. Malfunctions and reloads have a 100% rate of occurring. I'm sure Bob would agree with this, but the reason that his Advanced class is named so is because it is the advanced applications of basic fundamentals.

[Airgator0470]

Maybe 1500.

I gave the kid my AK to run for the class.


Bob, I felt like the malfunction drills should have been omitted in place of more advanced skills. Failure drills are a basic skill that should be understood before attending an advanced class. I think we spent about an hour reviewing failures, addressing them, and shooting with dummies. I would have rather seen the dummy rounds injected elsewhere throughout the day, especially in the obstacle course at the end.

I would certainly recommend both classes to anyone wanting extend their understanding of the platform and advanced rifle skills.

Understood... thanks for the feedback.

[Airgator0470]

The shepherd's hook spring in the AK is a grenade pin; once you pull it, you're not putting it back in without something blowing up.

I fully admitted to the shooter I did not know ANYTHING about the AK... I should have sent you an IM or called you... we located a picture AFTER we figured out how it sits... we were under where we should have been over I think or the other way around. Lesson learned by the shooter... he's a good kid, put in max training effort and was safe.

[Airgator0470]

[QUOTE=Jafar;186838]This is something that you can't do too much of. And to revert back to the original complaint, firefights are made up of complex dynamic situations in the manner of which Clausewitz said "makes the easiest of things so difficult."

Until a shooter can exhaust his fastest times in clearing malfunctions and reloading his weapon, all other drills are useless. I'm sure Bob would agree with this, but the reason that his Advanced class is named so is because it is the advanced applications of basic fundamentals.[/QUOTE

Agree. Mechanics and manipulation skills (mag loads and malfunction clearing) are at the top of my list of things that should be worked on... constantly. I appreciate the feedback but will keep the tasks in place as implemented.

Yes, I have folks load magazines with various round counts, generally five live rounds with a dud stuck somewhere in the mix... some get creative and put two in a mag, and then swap mags... so no, even though you KNOW it's coming, it still fucks guys up. Until that FUCK UP is eliminated, the drill and exercise is valid.

[Jafar]

[QUOTE=Jafar;186838]This is something that you can't do too much of. And to revert back to the original complaint, firefights are made up of complex dynamic situations in the manner of which Clausewitz said "makes the easiest of things so difficult."

Until a shooter can exhaust his fastest times in clearing malfunctions and reloading his weapon, all other drills are useless. I'm sure Bob would agree with this, but the reason that his Advanced class is named so is because it is the advanced applications of basic fundamentals.[/QUOTE

Agree. Mechanics and manipulation skills (mag loads and malfunction clearing) are at the top of my list of things that should be worked on... constantly. I appreciate the feedback but will keep the tasks in place as implemented.

Yes, I have folks load magazines with various round counts, generally five live rounds with a dud stuck somewhere in the mix... some get creative and put two in a mag, and then swap mags... so no, even though you KNOW it's coming, it still fucks guys up. Until that FUCK UP is eliminated, the drill and exercise is valid.

I even re-worded that response to attenuate the actual point I was trying to make.

[Tack Driver]

A yard stick wielded by the instructor into the ejection port of a student causes some interesting responses.

[Bodo]

Is this code for something? This is gotta be code right.

[0utlaw]

YDBC?

[Airgator0470]

A yard stick wielded by the instructor into the ejection port of a student causes some interesting responses.

I've thought of doing that...

[Tack Driver]

Is this code for something? This is gotta be code right.


YDBC?

Only in the private classes. Big $.

[AB]

I recall striking participants with a stick during one of the C4 shoots, but I never thought of using it to strike the weapon.

[Evil_McNasty]

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll53/ozzziness/Territory%20Wars/TommyDreamerECW.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjumoO01_rKAhUKt4MKHY41A5sQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbigelow34.proboards.com%2Fthread% 2F7607%2Fecw-on-tnn-10-12&psig=AFQjCNHTLfek8rBR_2AlPB0Uyzeq8lhMwg&ust=1455657074623368)

[Evil_McNasty]

We should all be doing more malfunction drills. For sure. It's funny how it can be second nature when you practice it a lot. Then sometime later when you haven't been practicing it, a malfunction throws you into a loop. Just like Bob said. Messes you all up.

[Airgator0470]

I recall striking participants with a stick during one of the C4 shoots, but I never thought of using it to strike the weapon.

You use the stick to cause the malfunction... when the student fails to apply the correct "corrective action"... it is THEN you are supposed to hit them with the stick...lol.

[e.money83]

jab the stick into the ejection port mid cycle (if you are that fast) and watch the world burn...

[Jafar]

Does it cause bolt over-rides?

[seadog]

I guess I disagree on the malfunction drills - I believe these are important even for advanced shooters.



It's a shame I can't like that twice.

[Tack Driver]

Does it cause bolt over-rides?

I don't see how. Failure to eject and brass over bolt is all I've seen.

[Dale Gribble]

Bolt Override vs Brass over bolt. Explain difference please?

[e.money83]

bolt over ride=the bolt jams a live round up into the upper near the gas tubehttp://www.tacticalfanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/200469_209876862355928_201698463173768_848126_6853 135_n-430x286.jpg
b.o.b. = spent brass fails to eject, gets stuck above the bolt in the upper receiver.http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d0bd81d5970c-500wi

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_p2CS3e4PGsM/TS-BhSf1K-I/AAAAAAAAA04/pmm1cMFAS2c/s1600/Case_Over_Bolt.jpg

[Airgator0470]

Bolt Override vs Brass over bolt. Explain difference please?

As many know, brass over bolt is where a round gets stuck on top the bolt, pressed against the top of the upper and CH.

I would imagine bolt over brass is one of those malfunctions where the bolt starts to strip the round from the mag but loses positive control of the round causing the bolt to jump over the back of the case thus wedging the round against the feed ramps at or about mid case... common in over gassed rifles.

As many of you know, I teach two types of malfunctions... easy and fucked up...

[Airgator0470]

bolt over ride=the bolt jams a live round up into the upper near the gas tubehttp://www.tacticalfanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/200469_209876862355928_201698463173768_848126_6853 135_n-430x286.jpg
b.o.b. = spent brass fails to eject, gets stuck above the bolt in the upper receiver.http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d0bd81d5970c-500wi

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_p2CS3e4PGsM/TS-BhSf1K-I/AAAAAAAAA04/pmm1cMFAS2c/s1600/Case_Over_Bolt.jpg

Thanks... pics, 1000 words, and all that...

[Dale Gribble]

Thanks, making sure I understood the terms..

[Jafar]

They still should have the same method of clearing; attempting to dump the mag, then using your finger or a field expedient tool to finger bang the bolt and pull it back by grabbing the face of the bolt through the ejection port or through the mag well and pulling it back, allowing the rounds or brass to fall.

[e.money83]

leatherman actually makes a tool for that. http://fonarik.tomsk.ru/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/MUT_Bolt_Override.jpg

[Tack Driver]

So did G-d. It's called a finger.

[Tack Driver]

Bolt over ride is a failure to feed. Brass over bolt is a failure to eject.

Specifically, bolt over ride is when the bolt slams home without stripping a round our of the mag. This is the typical malfunction induced when people don't get mags seated.

[FLT]

Knowing your weapon it's faults and how to overcome them is a primary skill set. With out the ability to keep your weapon running your value is questionable at best.

[Jafar]

Bolt over ride is a failure to feed. Brass over bolt is a failure to eject.

Specifically, bolt over ride is when the bolt slams home without stripping a round our of the mag. This is the typical malfunction induced when people don't get mags seated.

I get the verbiage, but I've heard several pro guys refer to brass stuck between the CH and bolt as bolt over ride and call a forward bolt with no stripped round a simple misfeed.

Which, to me, is a lot easier to classify.

[Jafar]

leatherman actually makes a tool for that. http://fonarik.tomsk.ru/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/MUT_Bolt_Override.jpg

Does it come with a "time out, guys!" sign?

[Dale Gribble]

So did G-d. It's called a finger.

I want to watch you fire a 60 round string and then put your finger on the bolt face.

[Bodo]

Gloves?

[Dale Gribble]

Bolt over ride is a failure to feed. Brass over bolt is a failure to eject.

Specifically, bolt over ride is when the bolt slams home without stripping a round our of the mag. This is the typical malfunction induced when people don't get mags seated.

Ok, so we have multiple definitions for the same term. Good stuff.

[Jafar]

I want to watch you fire a 60 round string and then put your finger on the bolt face.

If your life is on the line, you'll leave half of your finger in there and live to tell about it. Also, gloves man - you should be running them.

[Dale Gribble]

If your life is on the line, you'll leave half of your finger in there and live to tell about it. Also, gloves man - you should be running them.

No doubt, but I don't think many folks are going to practice that.

All my gloves are pretty skimpy at the finger tips. I'd rather rip out the bench made 7 tool. Or just shoot an AK.

[Jafar]

No doubt, but I don't many folks are going to practice that.

All my gloves are pretty skimpy at the finger tips. I'd rather rip out the bench made 7 tool. Or just shoot an AK.

I've done a lot of them and still have all my fingers. So...

[Dale Gribble]

I've done a lot of them and still have all my fingers. So...

Maybe it only works for the bearded.

[Jafar]

Maybe it only works for the bearded.

Now you're getting it.

[Tack Driver]

Can anybody explain how "bolt override" makes any sense for a brass over bolt malfunction? Yes, there are enough people out there using the term incorrectly to cite many examples as proof that it's the right term, but it's all right there in the name.


I get the verbiage, but I've heard several pro guys refer to brass stuck between the CH and bolt as bolt over ride and call a forward bolt with no stripped round a simple misfeed.

Which, to me, is a lot easier to classify.

They're wrong.


Ok, so we have multiple definitions for the same term. Good stuff.

That's akin to clip and magazine being two definitions to the same term.

[Jafar]

Can anybody explain how "bolt override" makes any sense for a brass over bolt malfunction? Yes, there is enough people out there using the term incorrectly to cite many examples as proof that it's the right term, but it's all right there in the name.



They're wrong.

*are

[e.money83]

improper grammar, your argument is hereby null and void.

[e.money83]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/03/03cef5ea5bd1c5b54ea33160f0eb77e2b38324bbe973113275 b4cfa703ce2890.jpg